Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

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Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Mr. McQuack » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:26 pm

Hi All,

For those of you who have seen my other posts, I did get my lab puppy (not a pointing lab), and am now working with her on some basic training. She is almost 10 weeks old and knows sit, has a decent recall, and we are working on down. Her retrieve has not been great, although it is getting better. We train with a bumper in a hallway, 3 throws at the end of a traing session. She will now bring the bumper back nearly every time and if she drops it she takes direction to go back and get it. I have also started playing hide and seek around the house with her using a pheasant wind. She is birdy as hell. Nothing excites her nearly as much as a wing. She goes CRAZY!! However, she has no interest in brining the wings back. She takes victory laps and loves to throw the wing around. I dont want to reinforce bad habits and want to be sure I'm doing right by her. Her drive is great and I'm so happy to see her this driven. Has anyone else had this or a similar situation? I'd love to know what you did or get some general advice. Thanks all.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby HNTFSH » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:02 pm

Just every puppy ever born sounds like yours.

Personally - while good habits start young remember it's a little puppy and not a dog. Pups can feel stress with too much "training" even under positive circumstances. The trick is training them without it being like training.

https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/v ... 11&t=21169
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby sprigs4days » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:12 pm

Mr. McQuack wrote:Hi All,

For those of you who have seen my other posts, I did get my lab puppy (not a pointing lab), and am now working with her on some basic training. She is almost 10 weeks old and knows sit, has a decent recall, and we are working on down. Her retrieve has not been great, although it is getting better. We train with a bumper in a hallway, 3 throws at the end of a traing session. She will now bring the bumper back nearly every time and if she drops it she takes direction to go back and get it. I have also started playing hide and seek around the house with her using a pheasant wind. She is birdy as hell. Nothing excites her nearly as much as a wing. She goes CRAZY!! However, she has no interest in brining the wings back. She takes victory laps and loves to throw the wing around. I dont want to reinforce bad habits and want to be sure I'm doing right by her. Her drive is great and I'm so happy to see her this driven. Has anyone else had this or a similar situation? I'd love to know what you did or get some general advice. Thanks all.

At 10 weeks my main goal was crate training. Pretty much just let him be a pup till we started working when he was around 16 weeks. Got him on some live birds and ran some simple retrieves in between. Sit and here were the only two commands that I started when he was at the age of your pup.
We learned a lot together as we went through the different phases of training and handling.
Good luck to ya and enjoy the rewards when he's in the field.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:42 am

Lose the stinkin' wing there's nothing to gain from and that's only creating bad habits.

Go back to conditioning good foundational habits, like "come" and delivery to hand, before you try building on them.

There will never, ever in Pup's working life come a day that you'll want her to retrieve a wing - or mess with anything smelling as much of carrion as it does. And before you expect her to retrieve, instead of run off with, a bird, you'll want to have well conditioned retrieving habits so well in place that it never occurs to her that running off or stopping to chew it is an option.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby BearRiverBanded » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:11 pm

I don't agree with the above at all. If the pup loves the wing then use it! that is something you have going for you He gets excited when he sees the wing. Put a lead on. 10' 20' is plenty throw the wing and when the pup gets it come and pull him to you. Reward praise like crazy and repeat but don't over do it! 3 or 4 times don't let him lose interest keep it fun and exciting. if you have to reward with a few pieces of dog food and train when he is hungry before you feed him.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby NvrGiveUp » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:29 am

Rick Hall wrote:Lose the stinkin' wing there's nothing to gain from and that's only creating bad habits.

Go back to conditioning good foundational habits, like "come" and delivery to hand, before you try building on them.

There will never, ever in Pup's working life come a day that you'll want her to retrieve a wing - or mess with anything smelling as much of carrion as it does. And before you expect her to retrieve, instead of run off with, a bird, you'll want to have well conditioned retrieving habits so well in place that it never occurs to her that running off or stopping to chew it is an option.


I don't comment hardly at all on here. It took 51 years but I have finally learned the value of shutting my mouth and listening for value in what others have to say.
That being said, I couldn't help myself this time. Please disregard Mr. Hall's statement above as it is not good common sense. Please. Enjoy your puppy and don't forget.....he's a puppy.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:47 am

NvrGiveUp wrote:I don't comment hardly at all on here. It took 51 years but I have finally learned the value of shutting my mouth and listening for value in what others have to say.
That being said, I couldn't help myself this time. Please disregard Mr. Hall's statement above as it is not good common sense. Please. Enjoy your puppy and don't forget.....he's a puppy.


Can't help but wonder how what I've suggested managed to offend your notion of common sense? Would you try building a house without a foundation? Or do you find it easier to correct bad habits than prevent them?
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:43 am

Here's the thing with a "wing".

Why introduce it? It doesn't smell like a bird.

Mostly - guys do it because the pup is excited over about anything it can chase and get a mouth on. That doesn't mean any more than the same reaction as chasing after your house slipper. Yet people see the pup get excited over the wing, since they don't want their house slipper slobbered on, and assume the dog is "really birdy". That "wing" must be doing the trick.

My dog loves birds! Yippee!! Way more gratifying than thinking "My dog loves slippers!"

It doesn't matter if this is fetch or "find" play. Wings can present more problems than other training props.

Now a live bird, shackled up pigeon for young pup....totally different story.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:04 am

HNTFSH wrote:Now a live bird, shackled up pigeon for young pup....totally different story.


Not for me, and I've maintained a loft full of them for decades. I'll introduce live birds very early on (at which point Pup can do no wrong as long as he shows interest):
P1010623a.jpg


But once Pup plainly likes them (whether he tries to eat the bird, runs off with it or, apparently not knowing what else to do, brings it to me as above), he's done with birds until we've conditioned good retrieving habits with less tempting objects and has the foundation to get it right without building bad habits we'll later have to break:
P1050733a.jpg


Then we're ready for this:
P1060031a.jpg


And eventually this:
marsh&gray.jpg


at an age when a lot of deep thinkers who "let puppies be puppies," instead of treating them like puppies and building good habits with puppy-sized lessons while avoiding bad habits, are wrestling with breaking those bad habits.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:36 am

Nice pictorial. Could not agree more.

Taking that further, making the pup a King on such things instead of a subject makes life better for all.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:56 am

HNTFSH wrote:Taking that further, making the pup a King on such things instead of a subject makes life better for all.


Would hope most can see how badly the bug's spirit was crushed by how he was brought on.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby crackerd » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:42 pm

NvrGiveUp wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:Lose the stinkin' wing there's nothing to gain from and that's only creating bad habits.

Go back to conditioning good foundational habits, like "come" and delivery to hand, before you try building on them.

There will never, ever in Pup's working life come a day that you'll want her to retrieve a wing - or mess with anything smelling as much of carrion as it does. And before you expect her to retrieve, instead of run off with, a bird, you'll want to have well conditioned retrieving habits so well in place that it never occurs to her that running off or stopping to chew it is an option.


I don't comment hardly at all on here. It took 51 years but I have finally learned the value of shutting my mouth and listening for value in what others have to say.
That being said, I couldn't help myself this time. Please disregard Mr. Hall's statement above as it is not good common sense. Please. Enjoy your puppy and don't forget.....he's a puppy.


'Fraid Mr. Hall's got plenty more years of listening to and listing value in what others have to say.

He's absolutely right on losing the duck wing, "stinkin'" or not - a goose wing, black or white, with no exposed bones or decaying meat might be a better option, but a duck wing, unless you're wanting a shih-tzu to retrieve as a party trick, has no value at all other than possibly teaching any puppy a day older than four weeks how to get started on a dark meat protein diet.

Wi-chu entirely here, Mr. Hall.

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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby crackerd » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:51 pm

HNTFSH wrote:My dog loves birds! Yippee!! Way more gratifying than thinking "My dog loves slippers!"


Dunno 'bout that, H&F - my puppy loved red Crocs - that was pretty gratifying when she went leapin' into the water after 'em at 10 weeks.

100_2680.jpg


But not nearly as gratifying as when she went up and over a farm fence couple years later with this in her mouth

100_4452.jpg


on a straight line back -

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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:56 pm

crackerd wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:My dog loves birds! Yippee!! Way more gratifying than thinking "My dog loves slippers!"


Dunno 'bout that, H&F - my puppy loved red Crocs - that was pretty gratifying when she went leapin' into the water after 'em at 10 weeks.

100_2680.jpg


But not nearly as gratifying as when she went up and over a farm fence couple years later with this in her mouth

100_4452.jpg


on a straight line back -

MG


Yea, but Ricks pup would have brought ya the pair.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:58 pm

crackerd wrote:
on a straight line back -

MG


:lol3: ...line back...
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:22 pm

The coyote was plainly mortified to be caught in the same photo with this piece of trash I removed from near the mudhole after Hurricane Ike:
2012-2013hunting024-3a.jpg
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:44 pm

Rick Hall wrote:The coyote was plainly mortified to be caught in the same photo with this piece of trash I removed from near the mudhole after Hurricane Ike:
2012-2013hunting024-3a.jpg


Don't blame him. Even camo doesn't man up a croc.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:35 am

I remain genuinely curious about what our two friends found so troubling about my suggestion and would appreciate hearing their concerns.

What I find wrong with it is the curt tone of a gruff old guy who felt Mr. McQuack explained his wing problem well enough that the the solution I offered should have been self-evident. For that I apologize.

Re: BearRiverBanded's rope suggestion, I'll note that just as Pup's natural inclination is wanting to keep the carrion/wing for herself, her natural inclination will be to resist the rope's restraint. So adding a rope to the equation is adding yet another problem to overcome (actually more than just that one), when it would be easier for all involved to take a step back and focus on conditioning her desire to retrieve her bumper to hand to the point where bumper retrieves can be moved outdoors and gradually into more and more interesting venues.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby crackerd » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:14 am

HNTFSH wrote:
crackerd wrote:
on a straight line back -



:lol3: ...line back...


Better'n lined Crocs!

Then again, back to the wing thing - still flapping...my gums re goose wings

100_2478.jpg


though it was a whole 3-4 days later til the wing gave way to the whole ducky deal.

100_2495a.jpg


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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby cluckmeister » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:59 am

Just a layman here amongst some of you guys, but, I've trained a few labs and chessies in my forty plus years of waterfowl hunting and I have used nothing but goose wings to train with thru the years. While some say the wings don't smell,, well maybe, they definitely have the texture a canvas or plastic retrieving tool doesn't have. Maybe I've lucked out but I've never had a dog bring back a decoy or maybe its because the dogs never were introduced to plastic or rubber. I had one yellow lab bitch about 30 years ago that could find a goose wing under a foot of straw or anything I would hide it under, she must have picked up a scent somewhere. Ok beat me up !
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:23 am

cluckmeister wrote:Just a layman here amongst some of you guys, but, I've trained a few labs and chessies in my forty plus years of waterfowl hunting and I have used nothing but goose wings to train with thru the years. While some say the wings don't smell,, well maybe, they definitely have the texture a canvas or plastic retrieving tool doesn't have. Maybe I've lucked out but I've never had a dog bring back a decoy or maybe its because the dogs never were introduced to plastic or rubber. I had one yellow lab bitch about 30 years ago that could find a goose wing under a foot of straw or anything I would hide it under, she must have picked up a scent somewhere. Ok beat me up !


The lab smelled you on the wing. Or the Bigmac deal pack it was sitting next to in your truck.

The wings don't smell like a bird, and that is the primary reason people think using them is helpful. So a complete wash as a training aide. Retrieving is sending the dog to pick up a fall. And returning it directly to your hand. That's the goal in the end and the end goal in the beginning.

Between the beginning and the end - what does a wing do that a bumper or other training aide does not?

Exactly how far can you throw a wing anyway? :huh: :lol3:

So it provides no "Bird Scent" training or value, is more difficult to use in meaningful ways relative to retrieving, is more apt to entice puppy chewing, and doesn't come close to resembling a bird.

You could tit for tat this all day long but most of the best trained retrievers in the country have never gotten wings as pups and any that did, aren't great duck dogs because of it.

But they make for good for pics.

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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby cluckmeister » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:39 am

Ok dumb question from this layman, why do most guys use quail wings with a fishing pole when training pointers if they don't smell?

As for the lab, I had different objects in the back yard to hide the wing under, they all had my smell, BUT, she would go directly to the object I had the wing under.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:45 am

I'm thinking Cluck's wing smelled to Pup just like an old dead goose wing, Cluck's hand, the Big Mac it sat next to on the truck seat, the truck seat, itself, and Lord knows what all else it had been in contact with.

By that same token, I'm baffled by the inference that the smell of a training bumper might somehow lead to decoy retrieval. Believe me, Cluck, a nose that can detect the difference between a live bird and a freshly dead or chipped one (which pointing dogs do as a matter of course) knows a bumper from a decoy.
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby cluckmeister » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:49 am

Rick Hall wrote:I'm thinking Cluck's wing smelled to Pup just like an old dead goose wing, Cluck's hand, the Big Mac it sat next to on the truck seat, the truck seat, itself, and Lord knows what all else it had been in contact with.

By that same token, I'm baffled by the inference that the smell of a training bumper might somehow lead to decoy retrieval. Believe me, Cluck, a nose that can detect the difference between a live bird and a freshly dead or chipped one (which pointing dogs do as a matter of course) knows a bumper from a decoy.


Not a big mac, a sausage biscuit :lol3:
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Re: Lab puppy is wing crazy and wont bring it back

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:58 am

cluckmeister wrote:Ok dumb question from this layman, why do most guys use quail wings with a fishing pole when training pointers if they don't smell?

As for the lab, I had different objects in the back yard to hide the wing under, they all had my smell, BUT, she would go directly to the object I had the wing under.


Because someone once thought a wing on a string a good introduction to pointing, which it isn't, and put it in a book or three. You can pull off the very same puppy sight pointing parlor trick with a piece of white cloth on a string. Like retrieving wings people liked seeing their pups point them, but it didn't mean jack.

Had a college buddy with a three-legged pound dog named Wombat who'd fetch whatever rock you tossed into a creek bed full of rocks. But I'm guessing in your case and most others, the dog's just looking for the particular object it's gained positive attention for finding. If you showed her she'd be praised for finding your dirty underwear, instead of your used socks, you'd have a hard time hiding the underwear in a house full of socks. Or brand, spankin' new underwear and socks for that matter.
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