Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1400?

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Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1400?

Postby Dave in AZ » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:03 pm

Looking for a 20ga steel load using CSD20 wad (or TUWSBL2024 from Precision, same wad). This is the 20ga B&P steel wad. I find only 4 loads 7/8oz or 15/16, Blue Dot and slow-- around 1300fps. Looking for someone who is loading 7/8oz or better, and has at least chronographed the load.

This will give me a starting point, and I'll send something in for testing at Precision... I want a "usable" 20ga CSD20 load, and 3/4oz doesn't do it for me. With all the hoopla surrounding PT2092 and other PT wads, I don't trust their availability OR their quality; and I don't want to pay 200% for SAM1 wads when many of them I get are cut like a jigsaw puzzle. Want to put my 20ga eggs in the B&P wad basket...
Thx!
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:42 pm

I start love my benelli and patternmaster classic longrange choke. 339grain number 4 steel speed 1532fps and 40 yards.


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7/8 oz number 4 steel same gun and choke. 1500fps and 40 yards.

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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:54 pm

420grain steel 4 made lilgun powder and sam1 wad speed was littlebit over 1500fps. Benelli and patternmaster classic longrange.

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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Dave in AZ » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:28 pm

Ok those look nice, but perhaps you forgot I'm looking for csd20 wad loads, and also to give the actual loads... pm me the loads if you don't want to post and its a csd wad. Thx! ;)
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby flyndutchman » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:56 pm

Dave, I'm getting great patterns with 3/4 oz of #3's in the 2 3/4" hulls and great in the field results. No matter what you put I it, unless heavier than lead pellets, the 20ga is a 35yard or less gun. Going to a 7/8oz loads will require a 3" hull. There are some loads listed with the Cheddite 3" hull with the CSD wad. These are the components Kent uses for its 7/8 oz loads. I don't have a ready source for the 3" hulls and I refuse to buy them when the 2 3/4" loads are working so well.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:03 am

I test yesterday some steel and HV13 density duplex loads and i think 40-45 yards is nothing when i found all what i need. 400-420 grains can get patterns to hight 90% shot to 40 yards even 20ga so i think that gun can take bird out 45-50 yards. I get easily too tight patterns 25-35 yards and im new 20 owner and just started test my tiny bore. i love my 20 already and next season i hunt only 20. ducks whit steel and pretty sure if can hunt geese then it is number 2 steel and tungsten duplex loads like hevi-metal loads. And if use tss then it kills better than any 12 or 10 whit steel loads.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby baltz526 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:02 pm

The CSD20 is a 3/4oz steel 2 3/4" wad. Status of steel #13 has a few interesting loads. SOS 12 has a couple 2 3/4" 3/4oz loads of interest. Now if you can Pressure test, a person could probably get 7/8oz to work in the CSD20 in a 2 3/4" roll crimp. With a bit of experimenting. I think you should do it then share the data. I would then buy a 20ga roll crimp tool. 134 #3 steel would need to rely on setback to be in wad during barrel travel. The Remington STS hull would be my preference since I have a bunch.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby dla » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:15 pm

Dave in AZ wrote:Looking for a 20ga steel load using CSD20 wad (or TUWSBL2024 from Precision, same wad). This is the 20ga B&P steel wad. I find only 4 loads 7/8oz or 15/16, Blue Dot and slow-- around 1300fps. Looking for someone who is loading 7/8oz or better, and has at least chronographed the load.

This will give me a starting point, and I'll send something in for testing at Precision... I want a "usable" 20ga CSD20 load, and 3/4oz doesn't do it for me. With all the hoopla surrounding PT2092 and other PT wads, I don't trust their availability OR their quality; and I don't want to pay 200% for SAM1 wads when many of them I get are cut like a jigsaw puzzle. Want to put my 20ga eggs in the B&P wad basket...
Thx!

If I were going to do that, it would involve 38-40 grains of LilGun, a 3" hull, and the B&P wad. Kent makes that load using that wad, and the powder looks like Steel (I dont really know what the powder is).

As a side note, I think a guy could hit 1600+fps safely with LilGun. Even higher if loaded to CIP.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:57 pm

baltz526 wrote:The CSD20 is a 3/4oz steel 2 3/4" wad. Status of steel #13 has a few interesting loads. SOS 12 has a couple 2 3/4" 3/4oz loads of interest. Now if you can Pressure test, a person could probably get 7/8oz to work in the CSD20 in a 2 3/4" roll crimp. With a bit of experimenting. I think you should do it then share the data. I would then buy a 20ga roll crimp tool. 134 #3 steel would need to rely on setback to be in wad during barrel travel. The Remington STS hull would be my preference since I have a bunch.


7/8 fits nice to 2 3/4 case if use under 4 shots even a-steel, and velocitys was 1500fps like kent 2 3/4 load and i try test pressures later. i can get 7/8 oz to 23/4 case many powders if i want and still pressures is here under cip and maybe even saami.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:01 pm

dla wrote:
Dave in AZ wrote:Looking for a 20ga steel load using CSD20 wad (or TUWSBL2024 from Precision, same wad). This is the 20ga B&P steel wad. I find only 4 loads 7/8oz or 15/16, Blue Dot and slow-- around 1300fps. Looking for someone who is loading 7/8oz or better, and has at least chronographed the load.

This will give me a starting point, and I'll send something in for testing at Precision... I want a "usable" 20ga CSD20 load, and 3/4oz doesn't do it for me. With all the hoopla surrounding PT2092 and other PT wads, I don't trust their availability OR their quality; and I don't want to pay 200% for SAM1 wads when many of them I get are cut like a jigsaw puzzle. Want to put my 20ga eggs in the B&P wad basket...
Thx!

If I were going to do that, it would involve 38-40 grains of LilGun, a 3" hull, and the B&P wad. Kent makes that load using that wad, and the powder looks like Steel (I dont really know what the powder is).

As a side note, I think a guy could hit 1600+fps safely with LilGun. Even higher if loaded to CIP.


If you load under cip then there is better powders what burns better than lilgun. I have problems lil gun clean burning even that 420g load.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Toasty » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:45 pm

dla wrote:If I were going to do that, it would involve 38-40 grains of LilGun, a 3" hull, and the B&P wad. Kent makes that load using that wad, and the powder looks like Steel (I dont really know what the powder is).

As a side note, I think a guy could hit 1600+fps safely with LilGun. Even higher if loaded to CIP.


As said before, the Kent shell uses the B&P wad. IMO the best patterning 20ga wad available, but a pain to use with 3" hulls.

If you go with lilgun, you'll have to use a nitro card or gas seal under the wad for a 3" hull. I would start at 37grains and see what you get (based on a 20ga 3" 1 1/8oz hevi shot data from BPI). Make sure you test it when it is hot outside or heat up the shells as lilgun has a high nitro content and would have a chance of going high pressure on hot days. I load up 30g of lilgun in a steel shot load in the 28ga and get poor burn, so not sure what 37 or 38gr of lilgun will do in the 20ga.

If you go with steel powder, there will be no gas seal needed. Start at 25gr (VP92 data sheet and RSI Steel Manual), but I think you will not get over 1500 fps with it. This is probably the easiest and best option to get to your load.

I will donate $10 to you if you develop a 20ga 3" 7/8oz load with the CSD020, test it, and share the data. Get a couple guys to join in and it won't cost you anything but your time.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Dave in AZ » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:50 pm

image.jpg
image.jpg (98.33 KiB) Viewed 5487 times
Dissassembled a Kent '7/8 ounce number 23 inch 20 gauge. It contained
381.3 grains of number 2, CSD 20 wad, 35.0 grains of some powder that looked just like a-steel. The #2 shot was easily contained in the wad, could have held a bit more even, but it was almost exactly 7/8 oz-- unlike so many shells I open up and test.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby BT Justice » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:06 am

Couldn't read you scale, was that 35 or 25 grains of powder?
I would wonder how they fit 35 grains of commercial grade in the load.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Toasty » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:12 am

Dave in AZ wrote:Dissassembled a Kent '7/8 ounce number 23 inch 20 gauge. It contained
381.3 grains of number 2, CSD 20 wad, 35.0 grains of some powder that looked just like a-steel. The #2 shot was easily contained in the wad, could have held a bit more even, but it was almost exactly 7/8 oz-- unlike so many shells I open up and test.


That powder also looks like Blue Dot and a couple others I've seen. There is just no way to know what the powder is and if it was 35 grains, that is 10 grains above what other reloading data is recommending and we can be confident that it is not Alliant Steel.

On a side note, I had a box of Kent 20ga #3 shells about 6 years ago that were way too hot. It split lengthwise about 50% of the hulls and the recoil was significantly more intense than the same load of #4 shot. I shot about 8 or 9 shells and threw the rest of the box away due to fear of loosing a hand. Maybe it is 35 grains of steel. :lol3:

Not sure what you have against the VP92, but here is the data for 400gr of steel from the VP92 data sheet in the upper 1400s:
90608 965 20 3.00 Fiocchi CCI209M Steel 24.5 VP92 OS20 400gr Steel #2 11800 1470 Mica dust wad Fold
90605 962 20 3.00 Fiocchi Fio-616 Steel 25.5 VP92 400gr Steel #2 11700 1460 Mica dust wad Fold
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby azdukhuntr » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:21 am

Toasty wrote:
Dave in AZ wrote:Dissassembled a Kent '7/8 ounce number 23 inch 20 gauge. It contained
381.3 grains of number 2, CSD 20 wad, 35.0 grains of some powder that looked just like a-steel. The #2 shot was easily contained in the wad, could have held a bit more even, but it was almost exactly 7/8 oz-- unlike so many shells I open up and test.



Not sure what you have against the VP92, but here is the data for 400gr of steel from the VP92 data sheet in the upper 1400s:
90608 965 20 3.00 Fiocchi CCI209M Steel 24.5 VP92 OS20 400gr Steel #2 11800 1470 Mica dust wad Fold
90605 962 20 3.00 Fiocchi Fio-616 Steel 25.5 VP92 400gr Steel #2 11700 1460 Mica dust wad Fold


Toasty its the uncertainty of the PT2092 being available in the future, right now no one has any. I have 5 bags currently on backorder from BPI, hoping they come in sometime in April like BPI says. I successfully used both of those loads this past season loading them with both #4 and #3. Good patterns and results in the field. Dave and I are just trying to cover all the bases if the supply of PT2092 never returns.

Dave check your text messages, sent you one last night with pics.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Dave in AZ » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:38 am

BT, you were thinking the same as me, "Whaaaat? 35 grains not 25??". Yep. I tried to take a pic of the scale screen, but the camera didn't like it's backlighting.

Toasty, I figured it's not Asteel also, but poured some side by side for comparison and it looks the exact same. Since there are several 7/8 oz Blue Dot loads, I got some of that and compared it too, same look again but no blue dots. Blue Dot recipes have same amount of powder as the asteel loads though, around 22gr, and 1300fps, so not that either I'm sure. As BT often says, there are many commercial variants of each powder we know by a name.

PT2092 or VP92 wads... I have one bag of 250, bought them right before BPI announced they wouldn't be produced or available anymore. Now they said maybe they will be around, but no one has any available. If you read the history of that company making the PT wads, played out painfully on the internet, it's like a crazy soap opera of vindictiveness, lies, and confusion-- NOT something that breeds confidence that a wad product will be available. Plus the wad is very thin, you have to use mylar for #3 shot even. Plus several testers have reported wad burn through in heavier LilGun loadings that I'd want, those ones you posted in fact. Plus I have 1000 CSD20 wads, they pattern great and perform very nicely in the Kent loadings, and are supposed to be good with overbored barrels.

RSI wads cost over twice what PT and CSD wads do, and all my guns are overbored Browning style Invector Plus, which I think aren't the best with SAM1 wad.

Then again, it's a "reloading crossword puzzle" that NEEDS to be solved! Perhaps the best 20ga steel loads available are the Kent 7/8 oz at 1550fps-- and they use all parts available easily to reloaders! Known cheddite hull, cheddite primer, csd20 wad-- the dang load DEMANDS to be replicated hey?? It's the "AZ TG Load" if you will (Twenty Grail)!

edit-- see you posted while I was typing azduckhuntr, saw your text, looks good! I went to load up some variations on this load last night, but started off trying to fit it all into a RemGC just to see (and I'm starting to really like no separate basewad), and ended up just reloading 5 boxes of 3/4oz light 20ga skeet loads for my kids this Sat.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Toasty » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:51 am

azdukhuntr wrote:
Toasty its the uncertainty of the PT2092 being available in the future, right now no one has any.

Dave check your text messages, sent you one last night with pics.


I understand the issue here, Grant at BPI assured me they were coming back, just going to take some time to get production up again. I posted up that data to give another data point for a starting load for whomever is the guy that is going to try to solve the puzzle which needs to be solved. I would feel safe starting at 25g of steel powder with the csd020 with 383g of steel shot. Come to think of it, I have 3 loads to send in for pressure testing, maybe I'll see what I can come up with and send that in with my other loads.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby BT Justice » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:11 pm

It's anybody's guess what powder it is but 35 grains of STEEL or it's commercial counterparts would be a tough fit in any hull. Alliant used to have some heavy 20 ga lead loads using 2400, I'd bet it was more along the lines of that.
I any event it's interesting to say the least.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:40 pm

Here is couple pics from my test what i just made. Case is fiocchi 3 inch 35grains a-steel BP20 wad and 7/8oz number 2 shot. I only see here perfect crimp, and If there is problem only problem is pressure. Finished shell length is 2.6 inches.

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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby BT Justice » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:01 pm

You don't know what type powder they used and you go and load something like that up??
You could try firing it, please send before and after pictures if you do. :fingerhead: :no:
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Dave in AZ » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:20 pm

HCK wrote:Here is couple pics from my test what i just made. Case is fiocchi 3 inch 35grains a-steel BP20 wad and 7/8oz number 2 shot. I only see here perfect crimp, and If there is problem only problem is pressure. Finished shell length is 2.6 inches.


Uhmm... I wouldn't shoot that if I were you. That powder load is NOT SUPPORTED by any published data, and it's way too high from any other data points by 50%!

The only published points nearby, ASSUMING the PT2092 wad and SAM1 wad generate similar pressures (indicated by several loads with CSD20 in the 3/4oz regime that are similar) are:
1. RSI 119, 25gr A-steel with Sam1 , 7/8oz pellets, giving 9900psi.
2. BPI 90604-957, 22gr A-steel with pt2092, 400gr pellets, 11000psi.
3. BPI 91106-w1565, 32gr A-steel with CSD20, 3/4oz, 10500psi.

All those data points indicate 23-25 gr Asteel for 7/8oz load would be a good STARTING POINT. Jumping up fully HALF the powder load, 10-12 grains more, is really completely bogus and dangerous-- I sure wouldn't test it.

Please tell me this is a language problem, and you were just checking for fit for some reason...
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:38 pm

Dave in AZ wrote:
HCK wrote:Here is couple pics from my test what i just made. Case is fiocchi 3 inch 35grains a-steel BP20 wad and 7/8oz number 2 shot. I only see here perfect crimp, and If there is problem only problem is pressure. Finished shell length is 2.6 inches.


Uhmm... I wouldn't shoot that if I were you. That powder load is NOT SUPPORTED by any published data, and it's way too high from any other data points by 50%!

The only published points nearby, ASSUMING the PT2092 wad and SAM1 wad generate similar pressures (indicated by several loads with CSD20 in the 3/4oz regime that are similar) are:
1. RSI 119, 25gr A-steel with Sam1 , 7/8oz pellets, giving 9900psi.
2. BPI 90604-957, 22gr A-steel with pt2092, 400gr pellets, 11000psi.
3. BPI 91106-w1565, 32gr A-steel with CSD20, 3/4oz, 10500psi.

All those data points indicate 23-25 gr Asteel for 7/8oz load would be a good STARTING POINT. Jumping up fully HALF the powder load, 10-12 grains more, is really completely bogus and dangerous-- I sure wouldn't test it.

Please tell me this is a language problem, and you were just checking for fit for some reason...



Those cases are fired and not contain working primer. Those are only reference that 35 grains a-steel will fit nice that 3 inch hull and 7/8 oz steel shot. Dave im shot maybe 1000 pressure shots last couple years now so im pretty sure that i know how reload.
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby Dave in AZ » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:18 pm

Glad to hear it, and no offense intended. Sometimes I'm not sure I understand what you post, or that I fully get what you intended--for instance it was not clear to me that you do your own pressure testing. I thought you were planning on sending loads to someone to test. Just wanted to be sure my posts weren't leading someone into firing an unsafe load by mistake!

If you could pm me the results of the loads we discussed in pm, it will help me understand which ones you've already tried and have data on, which I wasn't sure about either. I know its hard to communicate in a second language, and your English is much better than my Finnish! ;)
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby HCK » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:37 pm

Dave in AZ wrote:Glad to hear it, and no offense intended. Sometimes I'm not sure I understand what you post, or that I fully get what you intended--for instance it was not clear to me that you do your own pressure testing. I thought you were planning on sending loads to someone to test. Just wanted to be sure my posts weren't leading someone into firing an unsafe load by mistake!

If you could pm me the results of the loads we discussed in pm, it will help me understand which ones you've already tried and have data on, which I wasn't sure about either. I know its hard to communicate in a second language, and your English is much better than my Finnish! ;)



I try to learn more english. :smile:
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Re: Anyone have a good 20ga >= 7/8oz steel in CSD20 wad, > 1

Postby azdukhuntr » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:16 pm

Toasty wrote:
azdukhuntr wrote:
Toasty its the uncertainty of the PT2092 being available in the future, right now no one has any.

Dave check your text messages, sent you one last night with pics.


I understand the issue here, Grant at BPI assured me they were coming back, just going to take some time to get production up again. I posted up that data to give another data point for a starting load for whomever is the guy that is going to try to solve the puzzle which needs to be solved. I would feel safe starting at 25g of steel powder with the csd020 with 383g of steel shot. Come to think of it, I have 3 loads to send in for pressure testing, maybe I'll see what I can come up with and send that in with my other loads.


That's reassuring to hear that from Grant, that's why I ordered 5 bags even though I knew they would be backordered. I have read about the burn through issues others have had with the PT2092 but I have not found any voids/holes in the gas seal on any of the wads that I have. Lucky I guess and I look at everyone I load.

I put that exact same load together last night with lot #34 Steel powder in a new Cheddite hull using #3 steel shot, good fit and finish with a nitrocard spacer and 1/8" cork overshot card. Like you, I have other loads ready for testing at Precision and I might just include that one in the package. First one to get test results back posts the data.
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