TSS x steel duck/goose combo load for 20ga (or 16ga, 12ga)

[Dave in AZ]

Someone was asking the other day about making a load that would be lethal to all ducks large through small, out to 40 yards or so, using small pellets, and also have enough goose sized TSS in it to be lethal to geese at 40 yards or more.

I did some numbers and here are two decent mixes of TSS and steel that will get the job done in a 1 oz 20 gauge load, which should be incredibly economical and make a great one load does all combo shell. Can also be thought of as just a very solid 20ga load with the minimum TSS additive to hammerize it, which happens to make it viable for geese.

https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/combo-duck-goose-20ga/

[roughshooter1]

An interesting article Dave.
It seems you know your stuff with TSS..... do you advocate Duplex loads over straight TSS loads?
I have just gone over to the dark side and bought 2KG of TSS 7 and trying to work out the best way to reload it.
I have a fair bit of Bismuth that I will use in my break barrel guns but thinking high goose loads (or the capability of high goose) for the TSS. I had a couple of sets of data with the shot - a 28g load in 12g 2 3/4” and a 36g load in 3”. All use TPS wads but in my mind the LBC wads would probably be better
Graham UK

[Dave in AZ]

Rough, it doesnt take much tss to get enough pellets.for a load, and to exceed pellets and range for the max steel load you could find. Way less than it takes to fill up a 12g wad. For i stance, tss 9.5 is the same as steel B balljstically, for range of lethality... there are 1 lellet per grain, about. So a half oz load gives about 215 pellets... of B steel lethality! I don't like to hamburgerize birds in close, and I don't try to push out past 45 yards, so I don't need a ton of pellets to keep pattern filled. These lead me to duck loads with 180 to 200 pellets max, or goose loads with 100 to 120 max.

As you can see, that is about a half oz, less if using 7 or 8 tss for geese. You can't fill a wad with that for 12g. So if I need to add filler, why not use steel shot to fill the wad, allowing some tss reduction and cost savings? So for 12ga I like duplex just due to a space filling and economics standpoint. IMO, straight tss is best held, logistically, in 410, 28ga, and maaaaybe 20ga but expect to use fillers.

Ive got a bunch of duplex mix calcs with the math for pellet count and ranges and lethality, written up, if you search around my blog. Glad it was helpful.

[roughshooter1]

Will have a study through your research.
Not in a great hurry to get it loaded as doubt I will get out this season on the foreshore with all the current restrictions in the UK

[goosepit2007]

I like 1/4 oz tss on top of steel in duplex loads ...turns steel load that is good into load that is alot better with not that much more cost

I like 3 steel and 10 tss or 9.5 tss

2 steel 9 or 8.5 tss

Oz steel in 20 ga duplexed with tss as part of oz makes for great loads in 20 ga.

I also like hw15 3/4 oz loads 7 shot all guy needs and then bismuth is great option as well

Good write up Dave

[C M Wings]

In all seriousness someone needs to explain to me why bother?? You can load any light load you want in a 12 and if you duplex with larger shot it will pattern better. Is it gun weight, or just being able to say I shot a bunch of geese with a sub-gage? Not trying to sound like a jerk, I just honestly don't get it.

I've always been an Elmer Keith type waterfowler. Shoot with big fast shot.....

I like TSS - I've done some loads and only have one recommendation; use a size smaller than you think. I loaded up a few with #5 for geese and it killed them dead, but it lacked knockdown power because it just zipped through them like they weren't there. they basically bled out - hardly knew they were hit.

[Dave in AZ]

In all seriousness someone needs to explain to me why bother?? You can load any light load you want in a 12 and if you duplex with larger shot it will pattern better. Is it gun weight, or just being able to say I shot a bunch of geese with a sub-gage? Not trying to sound like a jerk, I just honestly don't get it.

I've always been an Elmer Keith type waterfowler. Shoot with big fast shot.....

I like TSS - I've done some loads and only have one recommendation; use a size smaller than you think. I loaded up a few with #5 for geese and it killed them dead, but it lacked knockdown power because it just zipped through them like they weren't there. they basically bled out - hardly knew they were hit.

It's hard to find a niche reason for tss. Lots of small contributor reasons. For me, it was my kids could only handle 28ga and compact 20ga guns well, and I wanted our few hunts to have the best success chances for them, for an essentially immaterial cost increase when all expenses were added up. But its just like deer hunting... why doesn't everyone use a 3006? Why do some use muzzle loaders? Why some black powder? Why does anyone archery hunt? Why does anyone pistol hunt? Why are there 100 calibers for deer rifles? The fact you don't see value deviating from a 12ga doesn't mean its not there for others.

If nothing else, recoil... not a day goes by here where some wounded or aging hunter doesn't mention he needs to reduce recoil for retinas, or shoulder etc. I can make a 10ftlb tss load that massively outperforms a 45ftlb recoiling steel load from a 3.5in shell, or a 30ftlb 2.75 in 12ga shell.

But yeah, for me personally I tend to shoot steel and just back up with tss, in case I have to shoot longer range at a wounded. Not sure I'm answering your question, couldn't quite tell if you were 12ga vs subgauge, or steel vs tss, or what. 12ga wads are way too big for reasonable tss amounts without tons of filler is what drives subgauge for myself.

On your last paragraph, you said go one size smaller... confusing. Did you mean go 1 size LARGER shot, which is a smaller number? Like if you think 7s, go 1 size larger and use 6s? Or the reverse...

[C M Wings]

Dave, lol yes one number size bigger so smaller shot size.

I get what you are saying about the ease of a young person handling a sub gage and that makes perfect sense. What I was getting to was that I can load a 20 or 28 recipe in a 12 gage shell and more often than not get a better pattern.... and minimal recoil - cause well it is a 12 gage and has a little heft.

I love to deer hunt but only use archery gear. I think the rifle comparison is a little off because shotguns all shot the same projectiles, just more or less of them. I won’t touch a rifle caliber discussion with a 10 foot pole lol but again I understand your point.

Merry Christmas!

Joe

[continental shooter]

hey

having read through and discussed briefly with Dave on the duplex side, and saying that i only shoot and own 20 bore I can say that duplexing makes a whole lot of difference in so many ways that is a no brainer.

Comparing a pattern with 1oz straight steel vs one with steel and TSS is two worlds apart;

Even from a cost-rewards perspective duplexing makes a lot of difference; why bother with 1oz TSS when a little of it can do the job at sensible distances (i don't shoot past 50 yds, the lesser the better) yet improve on the steel load

I use one load 2/9 for all shooting now, no fussing about with different loads, in different pockets, for different birds, much easier, more rewarding almost as cheap ... but that's just me

[Dr Swane]

hey

having read through and discussed briefly with Dave on the duplex side, and saying that i only shoot and own 20 bore I can say that duplexing makes a whole lot of difference in so many ways that is a no brainer.

Comparing a pattern with 1oz straight steel vs one with steel and TSS is two worlds apart;

Even from a cost-rewards perspective duplexing makes a lot of difference; why bother with 1oz TSS when a little of it can do the job at sensible distances (i don't shoot past 50 yds, the lesser the better) yet improve on the steel load

I use one load 2/9 for all shooting now, no fussing about with different loads, in different pockets, for different birds, much easier, more rewarding almost as cheap ... but that's just me

This brings me back to the question I keep asking myself, of “why TSS compared to HW15 7’s or 6’s?”. Price point HW15 is at $23/pound, TSS is over $35/pound. I’m working on a duplex load of hw15 and #2 steel shot that (ratio) can be utilized over various calibers. And I too, very rarely see the “need” for HW13/15 or TSS shot in really any of my hunting. However, it is nice to know what can be achieved and the cost breakdown compared to factory components.

[Dave in AZ]

Yah I'm with you on that drswane... I bought a ton of that fed hw15 7s in the 10ga shells from Rogers. Ive got spreadsheets on every density, every size, mixed with every other possible options, to look at pellet counts and ranges etc.

I was leaning to hw15#7 for 410 and some 28ga. But bullet225ho has done a bunch of patterning in his 410s and was telling me he just gets way better patterns with the tss steel, that hw and tss just fly too straight and give turkey head patterns at 40yds if you dont have so.e steel on top that it has to push thru, which spreads it out. So I'm follolwing his lead on 410 and 28 as he has shot more patterns and has a few good years of hunt data.

But now what for this hw15#7? So I'm planning 28ga with that on bottom, steel 4 or 5 on top to spread it.

[Dr Swane]

Yah I'm with you on that drswane... I bought a ton of that fed hw15 7s in the 10ga shells from Rogers. Ive got spreadsheets on every density, every size, mixed with every other possible options, to look at pellet counts and ranges etc.

I was leaning to hw15#7 for 410 and some 28ga. But bullet225ho has done a bunch of patterning in his 410s and was telling me he just gets way better patterns with the tss steel, that hw and tss just fly too straight and give turkey head patterns at 40yds if you dont have so.e steel on top that it has to push thru, which spreads it out. So I'm follolwing his lead on 410 and 28 as he has shot more patterns and has a few good years of hunt data.

But now what for this hw15#7? So I'm planning 28ga with that on bottom, steel 4 or 5 on top to spread it.

I’ve done Bullet’s 28 gauge hw15/steel combo. Patterns great. But again brings me back to 3’s, 4’s, or even 5’s and 7’s in bismuth for the geese. I like reusing the 10 gauge components as well.

Hw15 in .410, I’m sold on. I want to test out the 3” and even 2.5” bis 5’s (maybe 7’s after seeing some field results from it) in the next few days.

Thanks for the help along the way.

[lostknife4]

I use TSS #9 in 28 ga pretty well for everything except clay targets. I own and use several 10's 12's and 28's but since getting that first order of Hal's recommended #9 TSS I have graduated to using the 28 for everything that flies. It has the range and lethality , doesn't get held back by feathers and most times goes right on thru. With a cyl choke too. Over decoys I might use a Sk1 or even light Mod but only when the birds are wary and stay out beyond 40 yards or so. I see no need for duplexing just a waste of shot and time and money, if your gun patterns well without any holes and you do your part then success is well within reach. Remember the old adage: "be wary of the man with only one gun" , and one loading, as he probably knows how to use it to the best advantage in every situation.
Lost

[Dr Swane]

I use TSS #9 in 28 ga pretty well for everything except clay targets. I own and use several 10's 12's and 28's but since getting that first order of Hal's recommended #9 TSS I have graduated to using the 28 for everything that flies. It has the range and lethality , doesn't get held back by feathers and most times goes right on thru. With a cyl choke too. Over decoys I might use a Sk1 or even light Mod but only when the birds are wary and stay out beyond 40 yards or so. I see no need for duplexing just a waste of shot and time and money, if your gun patterns well without any holes and you do your part then success is well within reach. Remember the old adage: "be wary of the man with only one gun" , and one loading, as he probably knows how to use it to the best advantage in every situation.
Lost

What I don’t love about TSS or HTL shot and where or how we hunt is sometimes with proximity to homes, roads, fields, buildings, structures, etc. In these cases we limit our shot types (2 steel has a limited energy beyond certain distance, we have BB steel reportedly breaking car side window class beyond 365yards). I’ve spoken to Hal about these possible scenarios and concerns, but still don’t feel confident launching pellets that retain energy down range with proximity of even 400-500 yards.

My gun club has targets where you’re shooting towards roads, 675yards away, looks far, but still feels odd shooting towards a road with vehicles on it. I’d have the same or more hesitation with HTL shots, especially in larger payloads (more chances for pellets to hit unintended targets).

If BB steel can break glass at 360+ yards, where does TSS 9’s or 7’s (the largest I’d possibly go) lose energy?

I know it’s not an issue for some in spaced out field hunting and water hunting, but we also have to consider less experienced shooters launching TSS/HW13/15 near other hunters or unintended targets.

[mudpack]

. Remember the old adage: "be wary of the man with only one gun" , and one loading, as he probably knows how to use it to the best advantage in every situation.
Lost

That old adage was coined, and perpetuated, by guys who only owned one gun.

[lostknife4]

Or wished they only had one gun....
Lost