[ACEBLDRS]

Well guys thanks to all of the advice a while back, ACE and I are solid on the FF with a bumper. He has been doing great the last couple weeks, I just wanted to keep banging away at it to make sure. I just remembered today that i have a couple of ducks in the freezer , so tomarow i'm going to give them a shot and hopefully we'll have the same result.

My next step, and something i have been working on somewhat over the last year is the "whistle stop, and come". Right know he will come to my 3 short bursts, but he could be better. He also will stop when i blow a long single blast, only while at "HEEL". So we just need to refine this so that he is good and crisp on all aspects of it. I have been reading some articles on DOBB'S web site, and they have some very good advice. Also i have some DVD from Dustin's retriever's. I just thought i would see what you guys have to say about it. I love all of the stories and advice that i pick up on here. Sometimes i pick up just one little thing that might make the next day's session go just a little smoother.

So thanks for all of the FF advice and feel free to give me some whistle advice. :salude:

 

[bullet]

Ace, You first have to incorporate the whistle to the sit command. Once you've accomplished that I'd move on to sitting from movement. First come to sit w/ whistle blast from a heel. Then go to sit position while at a jog. Yes you're going to have to move too LOL. Then from a Sit Stay at about 10-15 yards out I'd call the dog in and go to a whistle stop. This will require movement to the dog on your part at first. Increase the yardages and lessen your movement. Although I have the 200 pg. Dobbs book that came w/ my TT collar and refer to it often, there are alot of things I don't believe in. He uses alot of continuess stimulation and I will only use momentary. He uses food alot too, and I won't. He also while teaching sit commands wraps the collar around the waist of the dog and I don't find it neccessary. The trainer I'm working with plays the game called baseball to teach the hand signals to my pup. He said he won't teach the sit command until he has the hand signals down pat. Baseball is you're at home, dog is on the mound, and bumpers are at 1st, 2nd, 3rd and home. Hope this helps some

 

[gsphunter]

Congrats ACE. How long do you think it took you from begining to now. It takes a while, but the results are worth it in my opinion.

 

[ACEBLDRS]

gsp, it took me about 8 wks. I don't think it would take as long if the dog was younger and hadn't had some bad habits. This was the third time i had started the FF training. My dog is now 28 months old. I had to kind of correct some of my earlier mistakes. Getting hold down took at least 4 weeks. There were some days that we didn't do any training. In fact, we didn't train for a hole week on the ff because i was so slammed at work. But it has all paid off nicely.

Bullet. You said you know someone who teaches handsignals by the game of baseball, before he teaches the wistle sit. I know the game of baseball, but wouldn't you want the wistle sit to be learned first?

 

[bullet]

Ace, Remember I'm no pro nor claim to be even close but what I've been told is you teach the sit to whistle at heel and at even jogging speeds at first but not until you get the hand signals down do you incorporate it into the game of baseball. My pup is being trained in Los Banos not to far from you. I visit about every week. (8hr round trip). He's FF, and knows left, right back/right and is being taught back/left this week. Big difference between B/R and B/L They are to turn in that direction. you give them. I asked the same question and he said he'll sit to whistle when we're done with the hand signals. When you're training for this they have to sit to whistle and focus on you. you don't just want a dog sitting out 50 yards and looking in some other direction. Then we'll get him to turn around on a water retrieve. Once he turns around in water we have to have a place to send him. Right now in the canals we are sending him on the way back from a retrieve right down the canal. we continue hand signals and follow him down the canal right hand signal right hand signal. On and on he'll go down the canal as long as you want. I trust this guy and have have total faith in his teaching methods. There's more than one way to skin a cat

 

[cooter]

I like to get Whistle Sit right off the bat, with Obedience. Then I work it into Obedience drills and things like that on a Pinch Collar. The hardest thing about it, doing it this way is remembering to use it while teaching the thing that follow. But during Collar Conditioning, it is great to be able to enforce Whistle Sit at this time.

I always have Whistle Sit done before I get to anything that is leading to hand signal. Force To A Pile, Baseball, T, TT, because by this time Whistle Sit is a part of his training and No Thinker for him. Just a reaction. But since it isn't done, it is not a biggy, you just need to drop back and get it.

Are you collar conditioned at this point ? ? ? If not, I wouldn't worry about it until I was CC'd. If so, Collar Fetch is probably next, and you can just add it on the end of a session Collar Fetch, and conitnue right on thru Walking Fetch. By the time you got to the T Drill or Double T, you should be solid.

So where are you coming out of FF ? ? ?

You have Ear Pinch FF done.
Have you got Collar Condition ? ? ?
Have you got Collar Fetch ? ? ?
Have you got Walking Fetch ? ? ?
Force To A Pile ? ? ?
Single T Drill ? ? ?
Baseball ? ? ?
Double T Drill ? ? ?

This is the order I try to get them in. One leads to the next drill, just adding another thing for the dog to do. Really shouldn't butt in, I haven't been in on any of the before stuff. But above is the order I would bring him to Baseball, and you can throw Whistle sit in with any of these drills, but by the time you got to Force to a Pile, it would need to be solid. Because you will need it in the Pile Drills.

The dog must be able to do ALL these things on land (Solidly) before going to water. Water is much harder than land, but if they have a good idea of what is happening on LAND, then water is much easier. cooter

 

[ACEBLDRS]

cooter, I was getting ready to work on the walking fetch this weekend. The way i was going to do it was to have several bumpers scattered around and have ACE at heel, then walk around the piles giving the commands "FETCH" or "LEAVE IT". Right now i can throw a bumper 30yds and tell him to "FETCH" and he will retrieve in a hurry and return and deliver to hand.

I have not used the collar in any of these drills. I have used the collar on him with regular obediance. I used the square drill with HEEL to condition him with the collar about a year ago. He still understands how to turn of the collar. I know use the collar in the field when we are romping around after a training session to keep him in check. I use it sparingly, for instance when he doesn't come on the first HERE command, I give him a nic and then HERE one more time and he is back to me in a hurry. It usually only take one of these instances for him to be on the ball for the rest of the day.

I will slow down and introduce the FETCH with the collar. I imagine it would be done like: Have the dog at heel/sit, hold the bumper in front of him and tell him to FETCH and at the same time hold down the continuos button. Release button when bumper is firmly in mouth. Gradually move bumper to ground and then out to several yards.

If this is not correct please tell me!!

Is my idea of the walking fetch correct?

 

[bullet]

Ace, While we're waiting for Cooter let me try LOL. walking Fetch from what I know is walking with the dog at heel and flipping a bumper behind you. Take a few more steps and turn around 180 degrees. when the dog gets to the bumper say fetch and he should lunge to the end of the leash and pick up the bumper and fall back into heel.
The method of collar fetch you're talking about is the escape method. Thats were the dog must perform the task (in this case fetch) in order to escape the stimulation. Personally I prefer to give the dog half a chance. My pup was FF through ear pinch and collar conditioned and only had to use momentary stimulation to FF to collar. Again Ace, just what I've been through with my pup. We'll wait to here from cooter. He has good info.
Ace if you don't mind me stealing your thread here but it might benefit you too. While in FF training do you continue to throw bumpers or do you stop all together until FF is complete

 

[ACEBLDRS]

bullet, I have had the same questions about throwing bumpers while force fetch training. I am sure a lot of guys will say no. But I have to have ace to the park or somewhere at least twice a day to run off some energy, The only way he runs off energy is through retrieving. He doesn't want to play grab ass with other dogs, unless they are the right kind of female lol.

I throw a tennis ball for him a lot. Also something a trainer will probably say is a no no. The theory is they start to chase things that bounce around and so forth. Like jumping for a flushed bird, I guess?

Like you said about giving the dog a chance before he gets the stimulation. I have read that and believe that myself. However in the beginning i believe that the dog should get a lot of stimulation or ear pinch. When he learns to turn off the pressure succesfully everytime without error, then i think it is ok to let the dog beet you to the pressure.

My questions are hardly ever directed towards one person. You all should feel free to comment. :salude:

 

[cooter]

I will slow down and introduce the FETCH with the collar. I imagine it would be done like: Have the dog at heel/sit, hold the bumper in front of him and tell him to FETCH and at the same time hold down the continuos button. Release button when bumper is firmly in mouth. Gradually move bumper to ground and then out to several yards.

If this is not correct please tell me!!

Is my idea of the walking fetch correct?

Your walking Fetch is the same one I use. And I'll get to it in a minute. But going to the Collar Fetch. I start with the collar just a little less (Pressure) than I normally use on him. You want to set up the exact same way as you were doing Force Fetch (Ear Pinch or Toe Hoop), except put the collar on this time, and everytime from here on out. Even if you aren't going to use it, you don't want the dog to get use to working hard without the collar and being nervous when it is on. The collar will never make a difference. The difference is made by his reactions. It may be something that you don't even bring the tranmitter to the field, but the collar ALWAYS goes on the dog.

Collar Force

The first couple days may require the help of your wife or a older kid. But you hold the bumper out in front of the dog and command fetch. You pinch the ear just like you have always done. But the help needs to understand that when you say FETCH they hit the CONT Button and hold it down until the dog gets the bumper in his mouth. Then let off the collar & ear immediately, just like you have been doing. Bumper in mouth shuts off pressure. At this point, with the dog having FF down, it shouldn't be but a second for the dog to get the bumper in his mouth (Alreaady understanding FF). Then move the bumper up and down, just like you were doing to teach FF, but the help is using the collar on every command. Then increase the pressure of the collar just a little. And continue, if the dog is still doing FF like he should. Then, you command FETCH and let the help use ONLY the collar. Let the dog start feeling the pressure of the collar and not the ear. Lay off the ear every 3-5 times, but the collar keeps using pressure. If you get refusal, go right to the ear. Refusal from here on out = Ear Pinch.

If he has been CC, then there is a place (collar setting) that you have found that he likes to work best at. Get the collar to this setting, and then start backing off the ear, and relying on the collar only. I use a 16' table, and I will SIT him on one end, and command fetch and he will go to the other end to pick up the bumper. If the dog understands the way to shut off the pressure, the collar IS NOT very hot, but a CONT Burn to the other end. If he No Goes, or balks half way, apply the Ear Pinch and finsh THAT command. At Every NO GO, apply the Ear Pinch and finsh the command.

This might take 3-4 days, but then he will have Collar Fetch down, and you will only get on the ear when he does not comply. Remember, once you get him fetching on the collar, you can back of the level of pressure as much as he will allow, and still perform the task. By now, you should be on the ground and the dog fetching off the ground with the collar. Now We Have Collar Fetch.

Walking Fetch

Lay 4-6 bumpers out in a straight line, about 10-15 feet apart. And Yes, you were on the right track with what you were saying. Only a couple of little adjustments. Using a short (4'-6') walking leash, YOU walk with the dog at Heel, just to the right side (Dog On Left) of each bumper. Just as you are getting to the bumper command FETCH and hit the collar (CONT) and he should pick it up. HEEL, SIT, DROP, and then as you are walking to the next one drop the last bumper behind you. Move to the next one, doing the same thing. You want to Pick Up EVERY bumper. We are teaching "Walking Fetch", so get every one.

Once you have this down, and he has been taught Fetch, then Leave-It is the next thing. And you have the concept to this.

Once he gets to where he is getting the fetching down, then go to a 10'-15' leash, and move the bumpers 20'-25' in between. Now start giving the command a little earlier, and get the dog to shooting out about 3'-4'. FETCH, HEEL, SIT, DROP. By the time it is over, you should have him shooting out 10'-15' to get the bumper. Working Leave-It in every so often. Now take off the leash, once you see the dog to understanding the 10'-15' fetch and work leash free.

See how we are leading to Force To A Pile. This will take a few weeks, but things should be happening pretty quick from here.

Force To A Pile

Now you start out at the same 10'-15' retrieve. Put a pile at 15' and send the dog to the pile. Once he gets to going on Fetch. Start commanding Fetch/Back, then drop Fetch after a few days, and replace FETCH with BACK. Once he get to understanding this, start moving the pile back at about 10' at a time. But take you time when you are starting a new process. Make sure the dog has a understanding of the new task, and is comfortable in working it. If he is underwtanding the New Task, then adding a extra step in the middle is not a problem. Every couple days moving it back about 10'. If the dog gets lost, then move up to regain confidence. ALSO right about here is where I quiet burning all the way out. Go to the NICK to kick him off, or CONT BURN for about the first 5' and let off the pressure.

Once you get here, let me know and I will tell ya how to get the dog to facing you and going BACK. Right Hand Back, Left Hand Back

You can do other things that you are already doing, throwing MARKS. Land Retrieves, Water Retrieves, etc. But the new stuff is first and then go to the things he already knows & enjoys.

Hope this makes since. But it is all steps creating the foundation. And with ANYTHING ! ! ! ! If the dog is struggling, back up to the last step, and slow down a little.

 

[ACEBLDRS]

Very well put cooter! Thank you very much! That sounds about like what i have read or watched. But you put more detail into it. A trainer can't put every bit of the info they have learned over their lives into a video. They skip a lot of things that come up from time to time. Thank you for sharing the info you have learned and the time you spent typing this.

 

[cooter]

No Problem.

I just hope it shows how each little step is added onto the last step. Like the teaching Walking Fetch. Get every bumper until he has it, THEN ask him not to get the ones you want left. He learns one thing (Get Then ALL), and then you just add another (Don't get that one), instead of asking him to decide or figure out the difference in the 2. This is the building that is going on. Each thing leads to the next thing. cooter

 

[ACEBLDRS]

OK cooter, I have spent a lot of time since last Friday out in the field with the pup. I'm lovin it. every night we go out and train for about 45 min on the things you told me to do. The walkin Fetch and then Fetch/Leave it. the last couple of days i have been doing the FTP. We started at 15' the first time and i had him retrieve 4 bumpers and then we stopped. Yesterday i did several Fetch/Back at 15' then moved to about 30'. Tonight I started at 15' moved to 30' and went back to 40'. When i end a session i usually have been moving up a stage so he can finish on a good note.

One question. When i have the 2" bumpers in a pile, he wants to pick up 2 at a time. He has never done this before, i would never let him pick up two of anything (unless it's a tennis ball and he's in the yard goofin off). I think since the FF and him now understanding pressure and how to turn it off, he figures what the hell, might as well take as many back as i can so dad doesn't bite my neck anymore. How do you handle this. I have stopped using more than one 2" bumper in the pile. This isn't fixing the problem though it is just masking it.

What is the next step as far as involving the whistle. Our whistle training up to this point is non existent. He will come to 3 short wistles (sometimes)

Thanks for any advice you can give. By the way, I love cooters advice, but i know you other guys have some good advice to. So please jump in.

 

[bullet]

Ace, again I'll give you my amateur opinion so take it for what its worth. You're not forcing Ace to piles if there's no piles. If it were me and once he picked up the bumper as soon as he went for the second I'd nick him. When we work piles w/ Bullet we usuually use 8-12 bumpers. maybe less I'm not exactly sure.
Our whistle work is done with a command he already knows. Example; If you teach a dog to sit, give a blast on the whistle and say sit. Eventually you can drop the word sit. Same goes with Here. or Come. Your 3 blasts and say Come. Eventually you'll be able to drop the come and he'll command on whistle. At first you're always using the whistle with a command he knows and performs well. If he's not coming back to come or here, then you've got to go back and perfect this command first.

 

[ACEBLDRS]

He responds to come or here, its just that i havn't done a lot with the wistle in regards to these things. He could alway respond to "here" a little better, somedays he has that slow response. I chalk that up to the fact that he has balls and is being a $%^# head that day. If he doesn't come on the second "HERE" command, then i start walking towards him to get his attention and tell him "NO". This usually works very well. The only time this occurs is when there is that sweet smell of a female in the air.

 

[cooter]

You'll learn to hate to ask me these questions, I tend to talk you ear off.

This is a great time in training the dog, he has the ability to understand the things you are wanting him to do. Sounds like you have it going.

The picking up multiply bumper is normal. He starts understanding that you want ALL of them, and he is thinking, Cut Down My Trips. :thumbsup: Nothing like a dog that is trying to think.

Let me just make sure we are aon the same page. By now you should be just NICK'n him off the line, not buring all the way to the bumper. If this is what you are doing. great. If not, just a NICK to Jump Him Off. Now start NOT NICK'n ever couple of times, and start backing off more. Just seeing if he is going because he is understanding BACK or the pressure is getting him to go. I like to get them out to 75-100 YARDS, doing the pile. As you get to where the pile gets harder to see from the line, shorten up on the amount of distance you move each time. And remember, they are close to the ground, so when you can still see the pile their angle is different. Use the same place to run this drill everyday. You want tthe dog to understand that everytime I go out to this spot there is a bumper.

Picking up multiply bumper is normal, sometime he will try to pick up 2-3, sometime they will pick one up, lay it down, pick another one up, lay it down, and get another one. This is all normal and is dealt with the same way. Just as he is getting to the pile (Have Whistle in your teeth) he picks up first bumper HERE Tweet-Tweet-Tweet. If he stays trying to pick up a bumper, then HERE NICK HERE. Now we have a refusal of the command HERE which gets the NICK. You may haft to keep BUMPING his with the collar to get him off the pile. As soon as he heads your way get off the collar Tweet-Tweet-Tweet. Make sure you are not leaving PRAISE out of your sessions. If he goes out and get one clean, comes in, wheels around to HEEL and hold till you tell him to DROP. Then that is the ticket. Lots of praise, not enough to get the dog out of control, encoruage him so he knows that is exactly what I want. If you haft to NICK him NO PRAISE.

Timing is a big thing on a lot of this stuff, you haft to be looking. Be ready and as soon as he picks up that bumper (right as it is happening) command HERE. If he keeps doing it after 2-3 times, then go right to the collar, no more intense, same level. But be waiting on him. He starts to get the bumper HERE NICK, NICK, NICK (All at the same time) don't wait to see if he will refuse HERE, he has been so he probably will so be laying for him. Then get off the collar some as he heads back. This is a habit that he has, and it may take a few days to break. As you start seeing that he gets off the pile when you start NICK'n, then don't command HERE anymore. He know understands you want him off the pile, so just go straight to ths NICK when he even looks like he is looking for a second bumper. Don't get PI$$ED, it is just training and stay with it until he gets tire of getting NICKED. He is control of ALL of that and when he is tired of ot, he will quit it. Up until then, I've got the time to NICK him if he has the time to screw up. :yes:

The collar should NOT haft to be very intense to get the dog to doing what you want at this point. He should understand the collar and it is a basic reminder. If you are not getting a response, THEN increase the pressure a little, but looking to turn it back down. In ALL collar work, you are always looking to use it as little and with as little pressure as is needed.

Whistle SIT

I would do this with a leash on the E-collar. Start like you were teaching SIT during Obedience, except add the whistle. Keep the whistle in you teeth while walking. Short TWEET, SIT, NICK on the command SIT. Again, collar is just enought to get the point across. Always Whistle before command of SIT. What it will do after a few days, is get the dog to trying to SIT on the whistle, before you have a chance to command SIT NICK. After 3-4 days, go straight to the whistle TWEET-NICK, and with most of the training, you are laying off the collar every now and then to see if you are getting a pressure reaction or a understanding of the command.

Once he has the understanding of the whistle, take off the leash and work without it. Now we are going to be walking, except this time when you use you whistle, you WON'T stop with him. You just keep going and he is suppose to stop. This is hard for them, so you may haft to whsitle, slow up a little cammand SIT, hold out your hand like STOP, just anything to get him to remain where he is while you move forward. Once you can get this, they pick it right up and you are off and running again. But you are want to get to the place you your never break stride, just TWEET nad his *** hits the ground.

Once you start getting to this place, add the TWEET, TWEET, TWEET to start him off again. If he doesn't come on the whistle, don't stop, just TWEET, TWEET, TWEET "HERE" NICK. Then just start adding the TWEET, TWEET, TWEET "HERE" NICK to start him off again. When you see him start moving before you get to HERE NICK, then Don't NICK. We are only NICK'n on the command HERE. He should start understand the COME whistle even better.

REMEMBER

ALWAYS work in the commands the dog has learned to each session. I work obedience from the box to the line and back to the box, in and out of the kennel. Don't be working him over with the collar, just looing to keep him shart and keep the command fresh. The more you use the the deeper it drive the training in his mind. If he is doing the work, you should never need you collar, if you start getting refusals, then reinforce with the collar.
Just because you have taught the dog a command, it was done with REPS, and if you drop it and don't come back to it for months, you haft to send time reviewing the command. But as a trainer it is your job to find places in your training to work in these taught commands, and it will give you a better dog i the long run, plus keeps all this stuff fresh and used.

At this point in training you can move from place to place as long as the dog has energy, but watch for tired dogs at this time of year. Here it is 100 degrees and aabout 15 minutes in the monring and 15 in the even is ALL I can get from a dog. So if we are having a tough session with the dog struggling, there is a lot more pressure on the dog, so he tires much faster. So if I have a tough morning, I will set uo a light evening for this dog. Working things he already knows, which will let me kwork just aa little long because of less stress, then I may just touch on the tough morning session at the very end. Not looking to get into a training issue, but just touch on it, so the dog has to try and remember.

About as clear as a muddy stream, huh. cooter

 

[bullet]

:thumbsup: Good stuff cooter
Ace, weeks ago working w/ the trainer we were doing some fairly simple piles but past 2 waterways and the pile couldn't be seen from our location. Bullet returned all 6 bumpers and it was time to go. Phil said Sh#$%. I said "What, he did everything right". Phil said "yeah but we missed an opportunity to teach" That statement made alot of sense to me.
Cotter, do you use a healing stick or a crop? That is a tool we use in conjunction w/ the collar. I was just wondering

 

[cooter]

Yes, Heeling Stick in one back pocket, the E-collar transmitter in the other, and a whistle around the neck. Waterproof Chaps if working water.

10-4 on the oppertunity to teach. That is why for the: "What very close and be ready". As the dogs get better, you get less chances to make a correction. That sounds like a good thing, and it is, but once you get teaching done, you need good correction or two to drive the point home. Not Hot NICKS, but just a correction.

In teaching obedience. I have 2 cats, and 12-14 dogs at the kennel at all time. Once I get a basic understanding of the obedience, I start working closer to the house and kennel. I am looing for help from the Cats, Dogs, Wife, Son, Cars, Birds, anything I can use to distract the dog.

If I am walking across the yard to the field to run some marks, and the cat runs in front of us, and the dog looks away or takes a step that direction. OH YEAH ! ! I change direction (Make A Right Hand Turn) and now the dog is not a HEEL anymore. NICK HEEL
Wife starts feeding in the kennel, and the dog turn to look or looses his focus, I mke an adjustment and get a correction.

These are the things that are done to keep dogs from smelling all the other dogs, or walking up and down a blind until everyone has had a chance to pet him. But there is 0 Tolerence, plus I am looking for ways to trip him up once he has the teaching AND understanding of the job.

I can be heeling my dogs and hit a SIT whistle and they will sit until I call for them, and I sometime walk 100 yards just to see if they will perform. I also use clues with my left hand when I say HEEL, I just swing my hand out to the left a little. It is a prompt that helps the younger beginner dogs, but as they get to where they are hard to trip up. I will just swing that arm out without a command, and if they move a foot NICK. I didn;t tell them to do anything. I sound cold, be I do it to help in the early ages, but I don't want to be in the blind with the dog, raise my left hand to point out a bird or get a ham sandwich and the dog move, looking to HEEL.

So I use what I can to get a correction. But to do these things the dog needs to understand, not just be beginning to figure it out. Has It Down Pat. cooter

 

[ACEBLDRS]

Still going strong! We were out to 65 yds tonight! Luckily the weather has been wonderful here, so we have been able to be out in the morning and evening! I do try to incorporate all of his training into each session as much as possible. I don't let him get stail on anything.

We have been working on whistle sit first thing to start off each session. We have done this 3 times for about 10 mins each time. He is getting it.
A little slow, so that is how i am taking it SLOW!! I think it will take me several more sessions before his *** hits the ground on the wistle.

One thing. He is deffinately building a tolerance for the collar. I don't have to use it often to FTP. I have just been nicking off the line. When I first started collar conditioning I couldn't get him over a level 2. If i hit him with a 3 he would Yelp. But lately, I have noticed when doing whistle sit, he doesn't move his head or act like he is under pressure at all, so i have since bumped him to a 3 and have a few times given him a 4. With the 4 i got the reaction i wanted. A very crisp sit. Is this normal? a dog building up a tolerance to the collar.

 

[cooter]

Yes, it tends to happen. And it is not a problem to raise the level when you are not getting a working reaction from the dog. But I do 2 things when I do. I don't stay with the Higher Level but 2-3 nicks, just enough to motivate the dog. And if I see I need to increase the level, I like to do it with something that the dog is very confortable with and knows well.

I don't do it with something new. When he starts acting a little sluggish, I may try to create a situation where I can increase the level while working obedience, and then dail it down, when I get to newer stuff.

Stay slow with the Whistle Sit, if he is acting like he is getting it even just a little each day. There is NO time line. We are always looking to try to keep his attitude and energy level HIGH. If you see him laying back, and skittish, get off the session and spend some time just running marks or something that he really gets fired up about. And stay off all the pressure for a few day or a week. There is nothing wrong in taking a week or two off and just let the dog do what you know he enjoys. I like to make this decision after a session and before I start something new. But if I read the dog weakening, I will get right off. Reqading what you see is the best advice someone can give you. Most of the time if you think you see something, you usually do. cooter