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Wonder if the angle of the tone board shapes the reed not by touching the reed but by actually keeping a thin "layer" of air between the two therefor affecting the sounf
 

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AWall3322 said:
KC you didn't even read what I said or what? The air is being presented to the reed in the same manner whether sucking from one end or blowing from the other because it all has to pass through the same channel.... Try not to miss it when you read this post.First off I totally disagree that the air being sucked from the insert end is the same as being blown from the other, in my opinion your experiment would result in false results. There for I immediately stopped reading into anymore of your theory. Furthermore, your back acting like a 5 year old supposedly trying to defend Maybe I was defending him, but he sure doesn't need me for that. What I didn't like the was the disrespect you showed towards him, at least that's the way I perceived it. stump since he's a call maker when stump himself said most call makers know nothingYup I read that. about this and even furthermore stump and I resolved the miscommunication you had no part inGood, I'm glad you resolved the issue, hope you talked to him on the phone. He's an awesome guy to talk. Remember you posted this on a public forum so its everyone's business!!! If you don't like it tough, take it to a PM next time.. I never claimed to know anything, I simply said in the video it looked like the reed slapped every time and since stump knows it does not that's fine. Oh and if your going to attempt to use my words against me at least get it right, I'm not yanking anyone's chain but stumps at this point and you come in to badmouth. We don't need any of that in here so STFU and GTFO.And I'm the 5 year old!!! No, thanks you!!! thank you
You know at the end of day all of this really doesn't matter, or whether the reed touches or not, just as long as the ducks fly and come in close. Meant no disrespect towards you AWall3322, just didn't agree with you. I'm done.
 

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AWall3322 said:
Stump that's amazing that it never touches. It must be so close that the eye can't see it along with being incredibly fast
Mr Cottingham utilized a laser to prove this fact as the distance between the reed and toneboard were way to small at times to see even via high speed video.
There is always a constant air stream following the profile of the toneboard when your blowing a call. That air stream makes it impossible for the reed to make contact.
The toneboard shape dictates how the air stream is structured which then effect how the reed oscillates.
And food for thought....a reed is longer than a tone channel....if the reed layed down on the tone board....the reed would then cover the tone channel making the call vapor lock as now you have no exit for the air.

Stump
 

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Ah, Stump beat me to it,
I was just going to call an air lock into question. IF the reed hits the tone board, you have air lock (until you let off the pressure). I guess if you think about it with only that fact, it isn't hard at all to understand that the reed can not hit the toneboard.
Interesting even without the bickering...
 

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Which makes one wonder why reed surfaces erode in what appears the toneboard's pattern? Caustic spit?
 

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Rick Hall said:
Which makes one wonder why reed surfaces erode in what appears the toneboard's pattern? Caustic spit?
Air and fluid dynamics is the answer to that sir.

Stump
 

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So the air lock is, obviously, caused by too much air holding the reed down but what about the call locking up from having too much moisture? What im getting at is the moisture would more less glue the reed to the tone board causing it to lock up so my question is how the hell does the BG Spit Tech line of calls work? What makes those calls not lock up like others? Anyone know?

Also, Stump I wonder if the shape of the lip of the toneboard makes and difference on the sound of the call. I dont mean the profile but the actual lip that the air flows over....Instead of being squared off what if it came up to an edge like a point on the whole lip. You guys look at that at all?
 

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Rick Hall said:
Sounds fair to me, but I'm not real bright.
Knowing that the reed does not contact the tone board...then

You blow air into the call (your air is ladened with tons of water molecules)...as the air travels the shape of the tone board an air stream between the tone board and reed is created. That stream keeps the reed from contacting the tone board. Now as the reed oscillates....on the down stroke the reed presses against the air stream riding the tone board. The compression AND vibration (remember there are now sound waves inside the air vessel (barrel)) of the air on top of the tone board causes the molecules in the air to vibrate and compress. This does two things...A) heats the air molecules and b) create a outward force. Now....hold onto that and add the moisture from your breath part. So you have pressure and moisture building in the call....
Pressure creates drag on the air molecules which we all know will over time erode a surface, then you have moisture added to that stream and that will also erode a surface. Now say your blowing a cocobolo duck call. You pull the insert out and wow...I can see the reed is stained, and kinda funny....the reed is stained everywhere except the tone channel area. HHmmm yep the reed touches the tone board one thinks. But lets really think...remember all I said above.....Add lastly that coco weeps nasty reddish orangish oils. You can wipe it down with acetone and come back in an hour and wipe it down again and it just keeps coming. Nasty stuff. So you add the weeping oils of coco with the pressure and moisture blowing through the call and presto...a stained reed. But why not the tone channel area.....guys thats where the pressures are majorly reduced as air is going down into it and away from the air stream between the reed and tone board. All those oils and moisture molecules are moving away from the reed in the tone channel area.

Make sense?

STUMP
 

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AWall3322 said:
So the air lock is, obviously, caused by too much air holding the reed down but what about the call locking up from having too much moisture? What im getting at is the moisture would more less glue the reed to the tone board causing it to lock up so my question is how the hell does the BG Spit Tech line of calls work? What makes those calls not lock up like others? Anyone know?

Also, Stump I wonder if the shape of the lip of the tone board makes and difference on the sound of the call. I dont mean the profile but the actual lip that the air flows over....Instead of being squared off what if it came up to an edge like a point on the whole lip. You guys look at that at all?
Surface tension......http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... %20tension

And I`d like to point out for all...it was Mr Doc Hull who FIRST came up with a stick free design. He did not patent the design due to the fact he wanted to contribute to the call making world. He is a very wise and noble man!!!!

Remember that air stream between the reed and tone board? Ok, that stream MUST have enough force to keep the reed from contacting the tone board....just enough force. So, one can cut away a portion of the tone board the reduce water tension but maintain the air dynamics (proper air flow to allow the reed to properly oscillate to ones tone board design) to keep the reed aloft. If you will really look at the new milled out tone boards that are available today, they have attempted to get fancy and mill out areas to keep both of my statements true.....reduce surface tension and maintain tone board air flow. Now go to far and disrupt the air cushion and the design goes all to craps....
On a personal note...I`m not a fan of the cut away tone board design. It can dramatically reduce sticking but I feel it also dramatically reduces full call potential. If air was always presented and the same angles, velocity, force etc it would be a great idea...but thats not what happens. We manipulate the air we blow to create multiple different duck vocalizations. With this comes the changing of the air stream to allow the reed to have different hinge points. All those fancy cuts in a tone board....limit what you can accomplish because they disrupt that air flow. My thoughts though on that one.

The tip....dude....OH YEA!!!!!! To each there own but that is the first part of the setting of the air stream profile. Some believe one is better than the other and I have my views. I am a blunt nose guy and for many reasons. But just a short example as my fingers and head are now hurting. If your in my shop and you blow a call and say....I want it to be a bit softer and have the call still quack but then hammer it...I can make the slightest of change by simply touching a certain area and hand it back to you. Super soft easy quack but loose nothing through the range. But at the same time for a hard blower I can change the same spot so that the call doesn't start up so easy as hey...he aint never backing off his power quacks.
I call all of this tone board dynamics. The more you know the better your calls can be

STUMP
 

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stumpjumper said:
Rick Hall said:
Sounds fair to me, but I'm not real bright.
Knowing that the reed does not contact the tone board...then

You blow air into the call (your air is ladened with tons of water molecules)...as the air travels the shape of the tone board an air stream between the tone board and reed is created. That stream keeps the reed from contacting the tone board. Now as the reed oscillates....on the down stroke the reed presses against the air stream riding the tone board. The compression AND vibration (remember there are now sound waves inside the air vessel (barrel)) of the air on top of the tone board causes the molecules in the air to vibrate and compress. This does two things...A) heats the air molecules and b) create a outward force. Now....hold onto that and add the moisture from your breath part. So you have pressure and moisture building in the call....
Pressure creates drag on the air molecules which we all know will over time erode a surface, then you have moisture added to that stream and that will also erode a surface. Now say your blowing a cocobolo duck call. You pull the insert out and wow...I can see the reed is stained, and kinda funny....the reed is stained everywhere except the tone channel area. HHmmm yep the reed touches the tone board one thinks. But lets really think...remember all I said above.....Add lastly that coco weeps nasty reddish orangish oils. You can wipe it down with acetone and come back in an hour and wipe it down again and it just keeps coming. Nasty stuff. So you add the weeping oils of coco with the pressure and moisture blowing through the call and presto...a stained reed. But why not the tone channel area.....guys thats where the pressures are majorly reduced as air is going down into it and away from the air stream between the reed and tone board. All those oils and moisture molecules are moving away from the reed in the tone channel area.

Make sense?

STUMP
Your initial response actually made enough sense, just never though of it being other than toneboard contact erosion, so now I'm feeling bad about your doing all that extra typing.
 

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stumpjumper said:
You got part of it...but not all. Simply the reed never ever touches the toneboard....even when you stop blowing the call.
The reed is always touching the soundboard....even when it's hanging around your neck.
How much more does it have to touch before you can say "it's touching"?
 

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If the reed touched, wouldn't the tone board wear out (more so wood) pretty quick?

I could understand the reed touching if the reed was too long and you were air locking it or something. But other than that, no.
 

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The reed completely touches at the end of every note, if it didn't notes would not be sharp at the cut off at the end of them. So yes the reed does touch the tone board
 

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Stump if your still checking out this post I just wanted to tell you I just stumbled across the thread involving the study you were part of proving that the reed oscillates to produce sound and touching the toneboard actually stops the sound and I must say thats some pretty neat stuff there. It is amazing at just how fast the reed can move from the little bit of air we put into these calls. Whats also amazing is that folks went through so much trouble to find out how a DUCK CALL works lol but again it is very interesting. Was also wondering if there was someplace I could look at the calls your making?
 

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AWall3322 said:
Stump if your still checking out this post I just wanted to tell you I just stumbled across the thread involving the study you were part of proving that the reed oscillates to produce sound and touching the toneboard actually stops the sound and I must say thats some pretty neat stuff there. It is amazing at just how fast the reed can move from the little bit of air we put into these calls. Whats also amazing is that folks went through so much trouble to find out how a DUCK CALL works lol but again it is very interesting. Was also wondering if there was someplace I could look at the calls your making?
To build something better...one must understand how it works.
Sorry sir...I mod here but do not sponsor therefore I can not post a call company. Rules are rules sir

STUMP
 

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After blowing a duck call for an extended period of time,the moisture line under the reed creeps more and more toward the tip.

Does this make the tone higher because the frequency of the free end of the reed that is oscillating is higher frequency?

Or is there not much of a noticeable effect on tone after there is a fair amount of trapped water under the reed?

John A. Chiasson
 
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