will she go out and pick up your birds? If so then is there really a problem? I have a lab looks just like yours that goes after a bumper like a Cheetah on a pot roast. I will drive to your house and swap dogs with you and give you 6 months supply of food.

 

How old is your dog? Is your dog steady? Does he/she show more drive over a bird more than a bumper?

Teaching a dog to steady too early can effect drive. But in my opinion FF will motivate, providing more drive and enhance overall performance. If you do not enforce the comand of fetch, your dog will have the option of refusal, that's something I don't want my dog to do.

Regardless of whether the dog needs it or not, I highly recommend bringing him through FF 100%.

 

Storm is 1, steady, and does show much more interest in live birds.

first stage of FF doesn't interest me. I'm simply considering the drive aspect that I believe comes from FTP. My dog borderline needs it. She is so laid back that I often interpret it as lack of drive. I'm going to be shooting some flyers over her tomorrow and evaluate.

Yes she is steady, quiet, and still in the blind.

 

I just don't think that you will see as much results in FTP if you don't go through the first part. If you're going to do it, do it all. I'm certain you will be more pleased. Every dog is different too. This dog may pick up FF much faster than your last.

 

Have you been able to get her some retreives on an actual hunt? Hopefully there are birds in your area now. I would finish up the hunting season and then think about it. It might take her a few hunts to kick in and really figure out what her job is.

 

I just don't think that you will see as much results in FTP if you don't go through the first part. If you're going to do it, do it all. I'm certain you will be more pleased. Every dog is different too. This dog may pick up FF much faster than your last.

I should have been clearer. Yes, I will absolutely do it all if I decide to FF. I just meant that she would not benefit from it until possibly the second stage of FF.

 

Have you been able to get her some retreives on an actual hunt? Hopefully there are birds in your area now. I would finish up the hunting season and then think about it. It might take her a few hunts to kick in and really figure out what her job is.

Not many, season has been slow and the few hunts she has been on have bombed. I completely agree about live birds. I am hopeful that she will liven up. I certainly wouldn't start anything new until she gets some experience.

I was just curious as to what opinions are on the subject of FF increasing momentum.

 

Also for the sake of the thread. Perhaps I am talking about momentum instead of drive. She is one of those dogs that is slow as molasis most of the time. I have seen plenty of dogs like this that don't lack drive just momentum. An example would be be Yote. Yote finished second (I think) in the SRS Crown. That dog took FOREVER to make a retrieve. I can live with it as long s she does a good job. My concern is that she is loafing BC occasionally she can really turn it on.

When she does turn it on its a beautiful thing!

 

So, I think I'm understanding your issue. I have a GSP who LOVES live birds. In the yard however, he would take his good old time retrieving a bumper for me. It may have had something to do with not mixing up what he is retrieving or just he didn't have this 'momentum' you are talking about.

I completed FF with him, started changing what he's retrieving and bango! We went out last night for some more retrieves and I'm only using this example because it just happened and I recall it very clearly. He took off like his rear end was on fire after a simple white 3" bumper. I can't pinpoint if it was boredom or FF but it was one of those two.

My recommendation, from the little experience I have, would be to get out on a few more hunts and re-assess the situation. Take the boredom point out of the equation then see what happens. Good luck

 

An example would be be Yote. Yote finished second (I think) in the SRS Crown. That dog took FOREVER to make a retrieve.

Doesn't sound like FF turned the trick for Yote.

 

Also for the sake of the thread. Perhaps I am talking about momentum instead of drive.

Boykin' you musta' been feeling a little heat from somewhere, :lol3:

I can say with much certainty that FF' doesn't add or instill magical retrieving desires that everyone dreams of in a dog..

Have always, and always will believe that retrieving desires, and/or how a dog "feels" about retrieving comes from a couple places..
*What it came out of the womb with..
*Whatever you put into it after it's out.

 

Also for the sake of the thread. Perhaps I am talking about momentum instead of drive.

Boykin' you musta' been feeling a little heat from somewhere, :lol3:

I can say with much certainty that FF' doesn't add or instill magical retrieving desires that everyone dreams of in a dog..

Have always, and always will believe that retrieving desires, and/or how a dog "feels" about retrieving comes from a couple places..
*What it came out of the womb with..
*Whatever you put into it after it's out.

No heat, I'm struggling with myself. I'm having a hard time reading her. Here are some videos that show her at 6-7 months. This was petty typical training speed. Now it is much slower...I changed drive to momentum because I wanted to clarify the situation. She retrieves reliably just mighty slow and I can't figure out what changed.

http://static.photobucket.com/player.sw ... -39_11.mp4

http://static.photobucket.com/player.sw ... 29_110.mp4

 

Good lookin' dog Boykin'. I'd try not to read style and momentum together "at a glance". At least from this keyboard what I saw was a compliant pup who seems eager to retrieve, but simply not bustin' down walls and blazing a trail of fire to get there..Did see some more enthusiasm however, with the bird in the mix :yes: - Maybe more birds in the training diet(?) Noticed that you may possibly be a tad early on the whistle before the dog gets to a mark, which could slow things down a little..

 

I don't think FF will ....or even should be used to increase momentum....it may as a side benifit, but FF is ment to increase reliability, dependability and to correct problems such as sloppy Hold, refusal to pick up, hard mouth, etc.
I feel the time to increase momentum is when the pup is young, through excited play retrieves! Does you dog get excited and have more momentum on Fun Bumpers?? Perhaps your dog is unsure, lacks confidence, during a training session, trying lightening up a bit, make the sessions more fun for awhile. Get him on live clipped pigeons and really let him have fun!!!!

BTW I worked with a dog that qualified in the NAHRA Natioals that had the gentalist water entry I have ever seen, she would swim without hardly a ripple, she would pick her way through stubble fields, etc. BUT she also handled like a dream! She was in total focus on the task at hand and responded to commands flawlessly! Comparing her to some of the dogs that worked more like an out of control frieght train with a Jet engine in their butt, I sometimes think, "So...slow isn't always a bad thing"!
:thumbsup:

 

Bob, can have those outcomes as side benefits, and often will by bringing your expectations into focus for the dog. I'm curious - as he bred your dog, why not go with Robert Milner's softer, gentler force fetch, unless he's arguing against it? Pretty hard to beat in its simplicity and for imparting to a dog.

But momentum is a key ingredient in your overall satisfaction with a retriever or retrieving gundog. Give you an example of what it means to me. I've got a 9-month-old running cold and now complex blinds, and she's understandably unsure in starting out for the second and longer blind after usually lining the first. One of my training partners (whose young dog work is always done by a pro) said, "You know you ought not be running any blinds over 50 yards with that pup." Au contraire, I want her building momentum once she gets past the hazard of the shorter blind and "stampeding" to the longer blind.

And that's generally what happens - but you wouldn't know it from how she struggles to get past the first 125-yard blind to go for others twice or three times that long. The momentum builds with the confidence from - and repetition of - running them. Force fetch didn't put the momentum in her, but it helped lay the foundation for a dog running blinds in the first place and on the whole building up momentum with each blind run. Granted, this is a field trial dog and she (hopefully) will run thousands of blinds in her time but I think the same goes with any retriever or retrieving gundog force fetched to bring your expectations into clearer focus for the dog.

Also I wouldn't dare try forcing to a pile without introducing some measure of force beforehand. Otherwise, it ain't a'tall fair to the dog and will likely only confuse him and set back his enthusiasm for retrieving. You can do pile work without force but again, the dog that lacks momentum in the first place would be more apt to ask, "What's in this for me?" And: "I just picked up three bumpers in the same place, why do I have go for a fourth anyhow? Maybe I just won't..." Plus or thus it becomes an exercising of "diminishing returns" both in the literal and figurative sense.

So are you close to deciding what you're going to do with Storm regarding force fetch or still weighing options?

MG

 

BTW I worked with a dog that qualified in the NAHRA Natioals that had the gentalist water entry I have ever seen, she would swim without hardly a ripple, she would pick her way through stubble fields, etc. BUT she also handled like a dream! She was in total focus on the task at hand and responded to commands flawlessly! Comparing her to some of the dogs that worked more like an out of control frieght train with a Jet engine in their butt, I sometimes think, "So...slow isn't always a bad thing"!
:thumbsup:

Slow isn't a bad thing if you are hunting ducks in Minnesota or Iowa, but it is definitely a bad thing if you are hunting ducks in NoDak or SoDak....I want my dog back in the blind, ASAP, so she is hidden for the next group of ducks that are coming in.... NAHAR rules state the dog must return without delay...I will mark a dog down for plodding along....So, speed all depends on the type of hunting or testing you do...a slow flushing dog that doesn't run hunt tests isn't a bad thing, :wink:

Labs

 

Someone also mentioned that FF doesn't increase drive, and that it only is used for mouthing, hold, hard mouth issues...Don't you think that dog snapping to grab that bumper to shut off the pressure is increasing drive? Then, when you transition to walking fetch, that dog is scooping up that bumper as quick as possible to shut off the pressure, doesn't inherently increase drive?

How do you transition to FTP, without first taking the dog through FF? Apparently there are guys doing it, but how do you get to FTP without showing the dog to shut off the pressure?

Currently, I have two labs that have been through the full course of FF, and I have gotten two different results...my older dog, will run out to the pile rather quickly, pick up a bumper and return...nice style, but not a firecracker....my younger dog, kicks up grass as she leaves the line, runs full throttle out to the pile....puts on the breaks at the pile, skids past, turns, scoops up a bumper and returns just as fast as she went out....one of the fastest, most athletic dogs I have ever seen...and I am not just saying that because she is mine. Does FF increase drive...sure, but there are also dogs that are going to be slower than others...that is simply genetics. I haven't seen a ton of boykins work, but the ones that I have seen, seem to be on the slower. Now that may be due to their small stature and my only frame of reference is labs...My point is, I wouldn't necessarily move to FF just yet, however, as the OP stated earlier, if you are going to take them through FF, take them all the way....

Labs

 

(edit: Labs in reference to your first post)
Labs, I like a snappy return also :thumbsup: , my example was for the OP that not ALL dogs are like Fighter Pilots returning to the deck! His question was whether or not FF would increase drive/momentum, my response was "maybe" but that there are many other advantages to FF. I feel that momentum can be better encouraged through keeping the dogs enthusiasum up by "fun bumpers" and live birds , on the return..... lots of excited-encouraging "here's" may help.
Another, some would call harsher method, is by teaching the HERE/HEEL command with an ecollar, start at a short distance, command HERE, countinuous burn (stimulation) until the dog is at your side. I guess you could call it a "Force Here".
I suspect the Op simply has a slighter softer (I don't mean that negatively) more laid back dog than the "Fighter Pilot" type.

(edit: in reference to your second post)
Regarding the mouthing/hold/hardmouth , I was stateing some of the main reasons for FF. FF is NOT typically used solely as an incentive to increase momentum, it CAN be a side benefit.
I did not read in the OP that there was an issue of the dog NOT grabbing or snapping up the bumper , but more of an issue of the dog NOT having momentum (moving out and back quickly) during the retrieve.
I believe that FF is "part" of a complete training program and I agree with you that some traits are purely genetic!
Sounds like you have a couple nice dogs there, Labs, one wise ol'man and one firecracker kid! :thumbsup:

 

Someone also mentioned that FF doesn't increase drive, and that it only is used for mouthing, hold, hard mouth issues...Don't you think that dog snapping to grab that bumper to shut off the pressure is increasing drive? Then, when you transition to walking fetch, that dog is scooping up that bumper as quick as possible to shut off the pressure, doesn't inherently increase drive?

Good post Labs..
I would have to answer yes, and no again..that is, unless your FF' table is 100yds. long and you can make that kind of observation :wink: :lol3:
Seriously though, I think my answer would be a question..

If pinchin' an ear felt good would you get the same results in the end (?) :hi: .

 

I may be seeing things, but in your videos I thought I noticed a slight limp or abnormal gait in the left front foot of Storm. Am I seeing things or could that possibly be a contributing factor in your perceived momentum problem?

 

boynkin:

Lots of good infor on this thread. I watched the videos, what I saw looked fine to me. I have a speed demon frantic desire retreiving lab. I understand guys wanting to train with a dog like that, she is fun to watch, comes out of her skin every time for a bumper or bird. BUT, she is a pain to keep from creeping, you have to get on her but every time with force, pick her up and shake her, e-collar, etc. I consider your dogs temperment good for what I want which is a duck dog to sit patiently.

I think you should force fetch her when the season is over just to satisfy yourself. I think the high octane dogs are great for guys that do the trials and test but a real pain for new trainers wanting a steady hunting dog. My friends lab has a much calmer nature than mine, I would rather hunt with his less trained dog than mine. Be careful what you wish for.

 

Labtrainer:

Isnt the "force here" the same concept as a force to pile? I ask this because I know most would not do force to pile before hold and walking fetch etc.

 

Someone also mentioned that FF doesn't increase drive, and that it only is used for mouthing, hold, hard mouth issues...Don't you think that dog snapping to grab that bumper to shut off the pressure is increasing drive? Then, when you transition to walking fetch, that dog is scooping up that bumper as quick as possible to shut off the pressure, doesn't inherently increase drive?

Good post Labs..
I would have to answer yes, and no again..that is, unless your FF' table is 100yds. long and you can make that kind of observation :wink: :lol3:
Seriously though, I think my answer would be a question..

If pinchin' an ear felt good would you get the same results in the end (?) :hi: .

I see your point of view, swampbilly, but the initial parts of FF are showing the dog how to shut off the pressure...ie, get your mouth on that bumper as fast as possible to shut off the pressure. (I know you already know this, but this is for the sake of the newbies) This is foundation of all the other force training. You don't necessarily need to use the traditional ear pinch, but you have to show the dog the way out of the uncomfortable pressure. When we transition to FTP, the dog should "know" how to shut off the pressure...ie, driving to the pile, whether it is at 1 yd or 100 yds....we don't need 100 yds to see that the dogs drive had better be there...this drive should then extend over longer distances. Ever notice that the dog's speed picks up, as the ecollar intensity increases?? A couple of sessions of FTP, and you don't need to give a constant nick all the way to the pile, as that dog should be a movin'... :thumbsup:

So, yes, FF, in my opinion does increase drive, or at least the dog want to get that object in his/her mouth ASAP to shut off the pressure while on the table...and it is the foundation (tool, if you will) to continue the dog's drive when you move to FTP. To answer your last question, no, you wouldn't get the same results...if the ear pinch felt good, it would likely result in a big sloppy kiss from your pooch!! :yes:

 

Labtrainer:

Isnt the "force here" the same concept as a force to pile? I ask this because I know most would not do force to pile before hold and walking fetch etc.

Force here should be part of formalizing OB, and be completed prior to even getting to FF....Force sit is also done in the same manner...

 

Labs I should have seen that was what lab trainer meant, its been so long since I collar conditioned my dogs, I just used the momentary stimulous (nick, here, nick) on the collar not the continuous.