Your response was very eloquent and sound. You obviously have a lot of experience and your opinion is an important one for amateur trainers (like myself) to take note of.
Having said that, I must continue "just a bit", because I don't want to leave the impression that I agree. I could type an entire manifesto on this topic, not because I have that strong of an opinion on the force fetch but because I think it speaks more on ones personal beliefs. I love my dogs 'almost' as much as I love my kids. With my kids, I am not hesitant or in the least bit ashamed to make it crystal clear who is the parent and who is the child. As a parent, I sometimes have to do exercise my authority for the greater good of my family, and society in general, in order to teach them right from wrong. Yeah, I have to 'apply pressure', I have to teach them that who is the master, but it is always done in a manner that is intended to disrespect them as little as possible, but in their eyes it is usually just that.
The same with my dogs. While I love them, respect them, and revere them, they need to learn they have a master. My dogs love retrieving and pleasing me, not unusual traits for any dog in the retriever family. However, for the greater good of the family and the society of my ducks blinds & pits, I choose to teach them in no uncertain terms who the master is in our relationship. You talk of spending enough time in obedience training, what is the difference here? Are you able to obtain a high proficiency in obedience training without any pressure whatsoever? If it is not physical it must be mental pressure, there has to be something to convince the dog to obey. Obedience in and of itself requires a master. You are not required to obey a partner, just ask my wife!
While I commend your obvious love for dogs I question your demonizing the Force Fetch, and apparently, the use of an e-collar. Just because you find the amount of pressure used in that style of training distasteful doesn't necessarily mean that you are right. You've been able to train dogs to reach a high level of proficiency at retrieving, and that is awesome. It doesn't mean that those who utilize methods that require the STRATEGIC use of pressure don't take a high road, or do not respect, and revere their dogs.
It is no different than the various styles of parenting that exist in our country today. There are those that feel the most effective way is to empower the kid and treat them as an equal, let them make their own decisions, learn from their own mistakes. Then there are those that take a more biblical approach, more "old school", something about spoiling and a rod. Then there are those that come down somewhere in between those two extremes. They pick and choose between the two in order to find an effective way to rear a child without breaking their spirit. The frequency with which you will have to reach for a tool approaching either extreme is usually dictated by pedigree. All you can hope for is that the good Lord has blessed you with offspring that will allow you to remain in the middle.
Dog training has the same extremes, and just like in parenting, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle and is driven by pedigree.
I think the vast majority of amateur retrievers don't force fetch, use an e-collar, or spend enough time with obedience. I also think that most of these trainers expect more from their dogs than they are capable of, and in turn, they treat them with disrespect. And I think retrievers who aren't even close to being steady, often refuse retrieves, and chase flying ducks and geese are disrespectful to their breeds by no fault of their own. The blame lies in the laziness and ignorance of their trainers for not helping them to maximize their God given talents. I think respect needs to be paid to the NATURAL master/servant relationship between man and dog, it exists for a reason. Great working dog breeds are identified by their willingness not only to perform a certain task, but also by their desire to serve and obey. Before they can obey, they must learn what is expected of them.
Anyway………I RESPECTFULLY disagree…
Steve
:salude:
Rat Creek
If you use Force Fetch as a 'last straw' you ought not use it at all. At that point in time is does become unfair because it is obvious that a solid foundation has not been laid. At that point expectations probably exceed realistic returns.
Just my opinion...