[Das booted]

After reading about poorly trained dog behavior elsewhere I've got to ask these questions.

If your dog is an out of control beast that either won't hunt or is too buzy fighting other dogs to hunt, would you get rid of it?

Is so, would you start over again from scratch, use a dog trainer, or buy a started dog?

If not, would you start a post on the internet and complain about how poorly a dog you trained performs?

 

[terryg]

After reading about poorly trained dog behavior elsewhere I've got to ask these questions.

If your dog is an out of control beast that either won't hunt or is too buzy fighting other dogs to hunt, would you get rid of it?

YES! then again i've been professional trainer for many years so i have never had a dog like that for more than a few minutes. one way or another. :wink:

Is so, would you start over again from scratch, use a dog trainer, or buy a started dog?

I have advised clients to ****can the dog they have and start over on occasion . other times i just solved the problem. simple problems like fighting, often times for free.

i always recommend a trainer for multiple reasons.

i have bought started dogs for myself, as well as clients, but that depends on the individual situation. many are uncomforatable with anything other than a puppy.

If not, would you start a post on the internet and complain about how poorly a dog you trained performs?

If not, would you start a post on the internet and complain about how poorly a dog you trained performs?

shaaah! as if ! never had that problem or desire but your point is not lost on me!

 

[WIDGEONATOR]

Some dogs are too much work to make huntable! A guy I know bought a dog that was about a year old. He told me a woman had it before him, but gave it back to the seller when it stopped being a puppy. I tried working with the dog, and I made some progress, but I was only able to work with the dog part time and I knew the dog need to be worked with full time if it ever had any hope of being a hunting dog. Trying to fix problems with dogs is 10x more work than raising one properly to begin with. Many people think that they can pay someone else to train their dog, and on some level you can, but if you don't handle the dog the same way the trainer does, the training is practically useless. Like the dog wisperer says, most of the time it's the people that need to be trained. If you spend big bucks on dog training, the trainer should work with you and the dog. Just my .02 on trained dogs.

 

[Pilgram]

, would you get rid of it?

I'd love to. Tell me where.

Just no desire or fire :thumbsdown:

Waiting on the old one to go before I start over.

 

[WIDGEONATOR]

Oh, I forgot to mention that the guy I was talking about got got rid of the dog! IMO the best decision he ever made! I told him if he wanted a hunting dog we should go down to a shelter with a pheasant wing, and we could probably find a dog that had a good base to work with. You can tell real quick if a dog is birdy, and listens to commands.

 

[terryg]

just want everone to bear in mind "when you try to make icecream out of sh*t you end up with sh*tty ice cream"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

pilgrim, if you have a dog as you described put him in the paper for free or go drop him at the pound. if you are queezy put him in the night drop at the pound

 

[Pilgram]

I can be a cold blooded killer when necessary (shot one of the kids 4H pigs last week and ripped the head off a chicken a few days ago with the kids whinning that I should take it to the vet)

But I can't drop off a member of the family at the pound cause she don't hunt and is a member of PETA.

I got friends with dogs so I'll wait it out.

 

[WIDGEONATOR]

I can be a cold blooded killer when necessary (shot one of the kids 4H pigs last week and ripped the head off a chicken a few days ago with the kids whinning that I should take it to the vet)

But I can't drop off a member of the family at the pound cause she don't hunt and is a member of PETA.

I got friends with dogs so I'll wait it out.

I hear what you are saying, if my dog wasn't huntable anymore I couldn't ditch him. I might buy me a second dog though. :biggrin:

 

[terryg]

oh. i'm sorry, i thought you bought a dog that had "no desire or fire" and had an old one too and 3 dogs would be too much.

my old dogs have earned a place at my table and can stay as long as they like. i do start looking for a replacement when the time is getting close.

my gsp(avatar) no longer hunts ducks and can still work upland for a few hours at a time, but at 11 we are bringing in a new pup this fall.

my 4 year old lab has taken over the duck duties but i am 100% a pointer man on upland.

ya need to start a pup now as it takes 2-3 years to get a good dependable hunter.

at my age i don't have that much time to fart around anymore. :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[Pilgram]

I got 4 pigs 1 cow 4 donkeys 2 cats 7 chickens 1 fish and four dogs now.

1 old lab, short bus ( the 3 year old) 2 non sporting dogs :help:

no room for another till one goes :biggrin:

For now I'll pick and choose the habitat I hunt based on what mood short bus is in or if I have her or another dog .

I know the next one I do get will go to school or be a started dog.

I wish I'd of bought one of Mr. Booted's dogs a few years back. Buying the house kinda fell through and it didn't work out.

And Mike only kept 1/2 my deposit when I backed out :tongue:

 

[Russell]

Is so, would you start over again from scratch, use a dog trainer, or buy a started dog?

Mike and Wigeonator... ( I am "Another Mike" on that forum and have a few post's on that thread..)

It would depend on the circumstances. My current CLM is similar in personality to Wig's, I has always had BLF's prior, and I think we had similar experiences.

I took him out of the field, (and hunted open water dogless for half a season), got some advice from the right folks and started from scratch. I was shopping for a started dog, but this dog stepped up to the plate (the tules) and is fine now for what I need.

My deal on that thread was that one shouldn't be disillusioned into hunting heavy cover dog-less, nor is it always better to be refuge hunting without a dog either....other than losing 5 minures of mobility moving a dog stand the benefits are obvious...very few losses, in fact "RARE" to lose a bird.

Now, can you explain the gas prices again? :biggrin:

 

[WIDGEONATOR]

This is the first time I have ever been involved in one thread on two different sites. :biggrin:

Wait that doesn't sound gay does it?

 

[Das booted]

I wish I'd of bought one of Mr. Booted's dogs a few years back. Buying the house kinda fell through and it didn't work out.

And Mike only kept 1/2 my deposit when I backed out :tongue:

Hey you got the whole deposit back and I even sold the dog out of state, so you never had to watch and suffer. :umm:

Not to worry - another 2 years and I'll be looking for a replacement for "mom" - maybe we can get a packaged deal. I think this time I may buy a started dog. Both Ace and Duece were great, but I am thinking about skipping the puppy stage next time - kid will be in college, so nobody thinks little fecal machines are wonderful after the first week of clean-up. :no:

 

[Pilgram]

Hey you got the whole deposit back and I even sold the dog out of state, so you never had to watch and suffer. :umm:

Ya I did.jus rockin the boat seein who can swim or not

:hammer:

 

[terryg]

Both Ace and Duece were great, but I am thinking about skipping the puppy stage next time - kid will be in college, so nobody thinks little fecal machines are wonderful after the first week of clean-up

i have been of that exact state of mind on several of my dog purchases in the past . the gsp i have was purchased at 15 mths. that was 10 years ago. i got burned on that deal though it eventually came out alright.

i've been in this bidness a lot of years. unfortuantely the cost of dogs has gone up drastically and as a result the training levels have decreased in proportion.

in the old days you had to produce a quality product in order to sell a good "started dog" .

with the flood of the "instant gratification " generation hitting the market with fat wallets and thin layersof grey matter . it is too easy to push anything that will "pick up a bumper" out there as a "duck dog"
:no: :no:

the other thread is a good example. you got guys that think they can find ducks as good as a dog. with the ones they have hunted around i can understand why they believe that.

when a pup went for $3-500 and a GOOD started dog was $1500 it was something i took advantage of.

now that pups from unproven lines and mediocre ability are being pushed at $1500 and "started??? " dogs are commanding 3-5 k , you've lost me.

i don't like the little crappers either and pups take a lot of time to get to what i call "started", but as long as i have to put a lot of time and a pile of money into somebody else's idea of "started " , i'll still go with the pup. at least i won'thave to fix as much crap :wink:

add to that my level or training knowledge and demands of a dog are more stingent than the average joes and i really have no choice.

you don't get this at 2 years without laying the right foundation :thumbsup:

 

[DuckFan]

Several years ago our family had a Cocker Spaniel. It was purchased for the family and was a nice dog. At that time, I had not owned a dog that did any hunting….

I happened to notice that as this dog grew, he was really interested in the birds flying by…and his nose was always down on walks - going a few yards to the right, and then to the left, and back and forth. He always looked 'birdy' to me. He would scare up a bird in the park, and then look at me like I should be doing something. Sounds odd, I know…but that is how it felt.

I had an opportunity to go on a pheasant hunt with a friend who owned a Black Lab, and we had been talking about my dog and his behavior and wondered if I was 'reading' this dog right. So, we got together for the hunt, and as soon as my dog hit the ground, it started working the field like he was a trained pro. My friend and I shook our heads. It was strange, but it was great at the same time.

End result - that dog kicked up almost all the birds we got that day, and became a wonderful pheasant dog. I got a lot of funny looks as I would be out with this Cocker…and keeping him clean was a chore with that hair - but well worth it.

I guess there are some dogs that naturally hunt, some bred to hunt, some that are trained to hunt, some that 'hunt' but can't do it well….and still others that are trained and are amazing to watch, etc.

I've seen all types at the refuges…and at private clubs as well. My hope for those with a dog is that they give that dog the best chance at becoming a good hunter/retriever by providing the necessary training and reinforcement, and recognize their dog's abilities for what they are - and just as important, for what they are not.

 

[WIDGEONATOR]

Dogs are commanding 3-5 k.

i don't like the little crappers either and pups take a lot of time to get to what i call "started", but as long as i have to put a lot of time and a pile of money into somebody else's idea of "started " , i'll still go with the pup. at least i won'thave to fix as much crap :wink:

add to that my level or training knowledge and demands of a dog are more stingent than the average joes and i really have no choice.

you don't get this at 2 years without laying the right foundation :thumbsup:

3-5 K Damn! I need to get into the dog business! I have heard a million stories about $1500 training camps and dogs that don't perform after being "professionally" trained! Personally, I know I could train a dog to hunt, but that doesn't mean I could train a dog to hunt with someone else! Most of these people have no clue how to handle dogs, that's why they pay someone else to train them. Training a dog is pretty easy, the reason most people fail, is they don't work with the dog all year, and then expect it to hunt.

 

[terryg]

glad you read the dog right!

actually the cocker, field and spingers all used to come from the same litters .

the smallest were used for woodcock(cocker) the field was used for upland(field) and the springer was used for heavy field and waterfowl, "springing" above the tall weeds and off banks into the water for a retrieve.( springer)

i have attended several spaniel comps and the american cocker , as well as the english, have their strong core of hunting enthusiasts. :thumbsup:

i wish everyone would have have your attitude about their dog.

at one of the clubs i hunt i have seens cockers, field, jack russel, border collies, and mixed breeds al hunting upland and the fella in the next trailer out there uses his springers for hunting ducks as well as pheasant.

 

[DuckFan]

glad you read the dog right!

actually the cocker, field and spigers all used to some from the same litters .

the smallest were ued for woodcock(cocker) the field was used for upland(field) and the springer was used for heavy field and waterfowl, "springing" above the tall weeds and off banks into the water for a retrieve.( springer)

i have attended several spaniel comps and the american cocker , as well as the english, have their strong core of hunting enthusiasts. :thumbsup:

i wish everyone would have have your attitude about their dog.

at one of the clubs i hunt i have seens cockers, field, jack russel, border collies, and mixed breeds al hunting upland and the fella in the next trailer out there uses his springers for hunting ducks as well as pheasant.

Thanks.....this was a dog my wife bought at a pet store with the kids when they were little. It was "surprise" when I got home :wink:

Sure was an eye opener to me about the breed and hunting. I think it is cool when you see a 'different' dog out working his/her tail off for a hunter. :thumbsup:

 

[speczilla]

Dogs are commanding 3-5 k.

i don't like the little crappers either and pups take a lot of time to get to what i call "started", but as long as i have to put a lot of time and a pile of money into somebody else's idea of "started " , i'll still go with the pup. at least i won'thave to fix as much crap :wink:

add to that my level or training knowledge and demands of a dog are more stingent than the average joes and i really have no choice.

you don't get this at 2 years without laying the right foundation :thumbsup:

3-5 K Damn! I need to get into the dog business! I have heard a million stories about $1500 training camps and dogs that don't perform after being "professionally" trained! Personally, I know I could train a dog to hunt, but that doesn't mean I could train a dog to hunt with someone else! Most of these people have no clue how to handle dogs, that's why they pay someone else to train them. Training a dog is pretty easy, the reason most people fail, is they don't work with the dog all year, and then expect it to hunt.

Terry's number for a started dog is about right and is actually a little low from what I have seen. But when you break down the costs it is actually a bargain. A pup with a great pedigree will run you $1,500 and up and most legitimate started dogs have anywhere from 6-15 months of training. A good trainer these days runs $600/mo. bare minimum. Then add in the vet costs for shots, heartworm meds, etc. and also food for over a year.

Say you find a dog that is just over a year old and has had 8 months of training. You would have $1,500 for the pup plus training of $4,800, vet and food costs of $200 for a $6,500 total investment. And I wouldn't spend that kind of money unless the dog had at least a Jr title. So add in hunt test costs and travel to and from hunt tests which would be bare minimum $500 to get a JH title. And this dog would in all probability not be a "finished" dog.

When you add everything up and factor in your time and the destruction a puppy does it is a no brainer in my eyes to get a started/finished dog. The best thing about it is that you can "test drive" the dog before you buy it. If it doesn't meet your specs then you don't buy it. Try doing that with a puppy.

All that said, the best hunting dog of my life was a 4 week old BLM bought for $10 in the front of a Long's drug store by my mom with minimal training by me.