For the best advice I would call BPI. I have used both buffers and they both work well. 1(888)273-5623

 

You could certainly leave the buffer out... It will not have as much pressure, and really buffer is kind of pointless on steel shot... The only real use I see for it is for the softer non-tox shot, buckshot, and specialty lead loads..

 

I have found that in certain loads buffer has added over 50% more steel pellets to a pattern at 40 yards. I have found larger steel pellets benefit from buffer the most.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=166424&p=1400797&hilit=buffered+steel+loads#p1400797

 

It was mainly made to improve lead patterns .
I know it works with Bismuth, I get over 70% patterns at 65 yards,with the larger size shot
in the 1 1/4oz payloads.

I have yet to try it with steel............

 

In the old days of lead shot, buffer was used mainly to prevent the lead shot from disfiguration upon firing. Buffer used in steel shot loads is totally for another reason. And that is to prevent the larger sizes of shot (lettered shot) from wedging or bridging against one another. If the shot happens to "bridge" when it's going thru the choke, upon existing the pellets will spring/repel away from each other and thereby causing poor patterns. For unknown reasons, buffering will be beneficial in some loads and in others, a hinderance to pattern performance.

As for the original question whether you can substitute Mix 47 and Original for one another, I'm not sure what BPI says about it. I can say that I have sub'd these and found no negative effects. I NOT saying to do it tho. I personally like PR's spherical buffering the best. As for omitting it from a load, I have done that also. I load a 1 1/2oz recipe for the 10ga that calls for Mix 47. In pattern testing this load, the patterns were weak and low pellet count. I then tried it w/o the buffer and got good patterns. I've been loading that recipe for about 13 years now, w/o the buffer, and it works great.

 

I do not pattern at 40 yards because to me that is pointless. My ducks are in close or past 40 seldom in between. I have not seen big steel pellets get me a higher pellet count at 50 yards. I have tried and tried. I so wanted it to work.... But it didn't... I would love to see somebodys data that shows enough of a consistant increase to not be an anomoly.

It is not uncommon at 50 yards to see a diffrence of as many as 10 to 12 pellets with big steel say BBB, T or TT

What I was hoping buffer might do was make the loads more consistant but I have never been able to find a load that evens out the pellet count in a 30 inch circle at 50 yards, 60 yards ETC.

As for buffering small shot? That is just stupid. You already have all the pattern you need to the max range of the pellets without the buffer? Why go through all that?

The first thing you need to be a good fowler is the abilty to shoot.

Small shot, large payloads of small shot, and open chokes will not make you a good shot.

They will help you to fill your bag at close range but a cloud of small shot will not help you at distance.

At some point you have to be able to shoot if you are going to shoot ducks past 35 yards and KILL them with any kind of regularity. Note the key word in that sentance is KILL them.. Not bruise a wing knuckle and sail them 400 yards.

This is why I pattern at 50 and I use big shot. When the birds will be close, I shoot a 28ga. When they will not be close, I go back and forth between a 12ga with BBB's and a 10ga with T's.

If buffer works, I would sure like to see it proved to me as I would buffer every large pellet load I reload.

Show me the patterns boys! Jeff

 

It is not uncommon at 50 yards to see a diffrence of as many as 10 to 12 pellets with big steel say BBB, T or TT
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What I was hoping buffer might do was make the loads more consistant but I have never been able to find a load that evens out the pellet count in a 30 inch circle at 50 yards, 60 yards ETC.
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At some point you have to be able to shoot if you are going to shoot ducks past 35 yards and KILL them with any kind of regularity. Note the key word in that sentance is KILL them.. Not bruise a wing knuckle and sail them 400 yards.

This is why I pattern at 50 and I use big shot. When the birds will be close, I shoot a 28ga. When they will not be close, I go back and forth between a 12ga with BBB's and a 10ga with T's.

If buffer works, I would sure like to see it proved to me as I would buffer every large pellet load I reload.

Show me the patterns boys! Jeff

A lot of reloaders swear by buffering steel shot loads, there are reasons why they get better patterns with some buffered steel shot loads. In buffering any load you have to give up something to add buffer to a load, that something is usually powder that is reduced in order to keep pressures under control. Usually buffering a load will add around 2000 psi vs the same load not buffered ( not written in stone but a usable figure), so in general most buffered loads will run lower velocities. Most lower velocity loads pattern better, slower speeds give slower pattern break up times.
The reason a lot of buffered loads aren't consistant is you can't be consistant with buffering, sure you can measure the buffer and use the exact same method of distributing it in the shot column, but is it really the same every time..of course not. There's no way of knowing if you have distributed the buffer in load A the same as you distributed it in load B, so you get inconsistancys in patterning.
I used to go the buffering route with my Turkey loads, large, heavy, slow moving loads..the standard fair for turkeys. Then I noticed something when I picked up a downed bird( that by the way took me two shots to kill), pellets falling out of the feathers,,,they had never even penetrated the skin. So the gears start turning and I ask myself, how many pellets do you really get in a head/neck shot and why waste the others that don't hit the head/neck area. Having a payload with 300 pellets in it and relying on 5% to kill a bird that big seemed ridiculous to me. Since that time I don't use any load for turkeys under 1450 fps, the payloads are much lighter but the results are far better, I get full penetration from most of the pellets that hit a turkey and more one shot kills then I ever did with heavy, slower loads that had twice the pellet count.
Great looking patterns on paper are a nice thing, running or flying wounded birds aren't...velocity wins out every time.

 

Ignorance is bliss.
Buffered BBB at 50 yards.50 yards is easy with buffered steel,consistant down to a couple of pellets at fifty yards and within ten percent at 60 ,depending on load.

 

Good or bad, I just know one thing..........................

DON"T spill it onto the loading table !!

Stuff will start walking around,on you and you will thing the area is haunted.

 

91 BBB at 50 yards? You post the load and I will load it tomorrow and post the patterns at a real 50 yards.

My 10ga with 1 1/2 of BBB's does maybe 52 pellets.

If Ignorance is bliss? I don't want to be ignorant.

91 BBB's is a 1 1/2 load. So you would have me believe that you are shooting a 100% pattern at 50 yards?

Even if you were shootinh an 1 5/8 you are looking at 99 pellets. So you are getting near a 100% pattern at 50 yards?

 

91 BBB at 50 yards? You post the load and I will load it tomorrow and post the patterns at a real 50 yards.

My 10ga with 1 1/2 of BBB's does maybe 52 pellets.

If Ignorance is bliss? I don't want to be ignorant.

91 BBB's is a 1 1/2 load. So you would have me believe that you are shooting a 100% pattern at 50 yards?

Even if you were shootinh an 1 5/8 you are looking at 99 pellets. So you are getting near a 100% pattern at 50 yards?

This is the one for you then.100 BBB ,buffered,ten bore.Gives me 60 to 70 hits at a "real "60 yards,from the muzzle.

 

What choke constriction and what load are you using? I might even give up shooting t's if I could get that many BBB's. So.. 100 pellets you are right at 1 5/8 of shot. What is the wad, powder ETC. ETC? If I can duplicate the pattern you have I will be sending you a very nice gift!

I have had zero luck buffering T's and to be honest with you, I never bothered with BBB's since the average handload with BBB's was so close to a load of T's I never even bothered with BBB's in the 10ga. BBB's are the only thing I shoot in a 12ga.

What is the load and the choke constriction? Jeff

 

Here is a 60 yard pattern of a load I used this year on geese. I like buffer.

 

Here is a 60 yard pattern of a load I used this year on geese. I like buffer.

That duplex load looks good but I want the load that shoots 91 BBB's at 50 yards. That would hammer 50 yard mallards. Jeff

 

Jeff....why do you think you need BBB to shoot 50 yard mallards?

 

I don't need BBB's to shoot 50 yard Mallards. I need BBB's to KILL 50 yard mallards. As in kill them dead on their backs with the feet wiggling. The load I have now will do it but that load will do it far better. Listen to me... I guide and I shoot back up a whole bunch. Most years I kill 250 to 300 ducks and from 60 to 100 geese. Big ducks and big geese. Not teal and wood ducks or snow geese. Mallards in cold weather and Western strain Canadas. Often I have to shoot well past 50 yards. If smaller shot worked I would be using it.
I can't afford to shoot Hevi-shot or Tungston. I need steel shot loads that will perform on the edge.

I have seen all the sillness posted on this site about steel 2's at supersonic speed shooting steel 4's and killing ducks at 50 yards and lots of other non-sense. If guys want to believe they are killing ducks dead at 50 plus yards with small shot on a regular basis, I am not going to try and argue the point with them. It's real simple..... I know better.

When birds are 30 yards or less all that sillyness is just that. Anything you put in the gun will work at 30 yards. Long range is a specialty area that has it's own set of demands and they are very rigid. You have to have a gun and a load that will kill the bird dead and you have to be able to put the pattern where it will do you the most good.

Most people have no idea how far 50 yards really is and what it takes to drop birds DEAD at 50 to 70 yards.

That BBB load that he has listed will keep a whole lot of crippled birds from becoming fox food.Jeff

 

Jeff, I agree if you are shooting that far you need BB or BBB. I shoot supersonic 2s but never past 50 yrds and I wouldn't shoot 1400fps past 35 yrds. If you play with hand loads and different chokes you should have no problem getting a good pattern out that far. Talk to Triple B, I think he has some long range steel patterns also.

 

I don't need BBB's to shoot 50 yard Mallards. I need BBB's to KILL 50 yard mallards. As in kill them dead on their backs with the feet wiggling. The load I have now will do it but that load will do it far better. Listen to me... I guide and I shoot back up a whole bunch. Most years I kill 250 to 300 ducks and from 60 to 100 geese. Big ducks and big geese. Not teal and wood ducks or snow geese. Mallards in cold weather and Western strain Canadas. Often I have to shoot well past 50 yards. If smaller shot worked I would be using it.
I can't afford to shoot Hevi-shot or Tungston. I need steel shot loads that will perform on the edge.

I have seen all the sillness posted on this site about steel 2's at supersonic speed shooting steel 4's and killing ducks at 50 yards and lots of other non-sense. If guys want to believe they are killing ducks dead at 50 plus yards with small shot on a regular basis, I am not going to try and argue the point with them. It's real simple..... I know better.

When birds are 30 yards or less all that sillyness is just that. Anything you put in the gun will work at 30 yards. Long range is a specialty area that has it's own set of demands and they are very rigid. You have to have a gun and a load that will kill the bird dead and you have to be able to put the pattern where it will do you the most good.

Most people have no idea how far 50 yards really is and what it takes to drop birds DEAD at 50 to 70 yards.

That BBB load that he has listed will keep a whole lot of crippled birds from becoming fox food.Jeff

Jeff,
I will PM you this load,and run you through it,on one condition.
That you also use it with 210 #2s through a Terror 705 and shoot some mallard with it.
This is not to belittle you in any way,but to show you what a properly sorted load of of #2 steel does to mallard,even at 50 yards.
BBB at 60 yards

 

Pinks, must be 10 ga to get 210 #2s?

 

Yep,same load as in those crimped loads

 

I will gladly try the steel 2 load. I don't know why I would ever shoot it when I could shoot the BBB load though.

Most of the time I am cleaning up somebody elses mess. If I can bring the Mallard down ( and still better dead) it not only put the bird in the bag but keeps from a duck sailing 400 yards out into the river and then having to make the best attempt i can to get it.
Lot's of the spots I hunt are not out of a boat. It's simple when all you have to do is fire up the big motor and go after them. By the time you have two feet of chop on the river the dog can't see the shoreline anymore. without a boat you just can not send the dog as you stand a chance of drowning the dog. Not to mention just the conditons in the first place. 18 degrees and blowing 40 miles per hour. You don't want the dog out in the water any longer then needed.

When I am talking about 50 yards, I am talking about 50 yards birds that are flaring andf climbing and usally have been hit and will go a long way if I can't stop them. 50 is where it starts and gets farther from there. Sometimes I am scratching them at 70 and farther.

If I could find a way to make T's shoot the kind of percentages Pinks is getting with his BBB load, I would really be in heaven. Jeff

 

Jeff...how many BBB do you think it takes to bring down a mallard at 50 yards? I guess my question is what kind of pattern density do you look for? I've followed your posts over the past year or so and you always say you use BBB for ducks and my thought is what about pattern density.
I'm not trying to pick a fight so please dont take my questions the wrong way. You have a interesting opinion on this and I'm just picking your brain a little.

 

Jeff,

I am in search of the 60 yd pattern too. It is not an easy task but I am getting lots of help along the way. I think a big load of B might be a happy compromise here with respect to pattern density. At any rate, I will be testing in the next few weeks if all goes well. I would be more than happy to let you know what happens if you wish. I don't usually like shot size BB up for my appliction but that's usually close work. That being said the big stuff is coming out for this 60 yard quest I will leave no stone unturnrned! :lol3:

Cheers,

Rob MacK

 

How many does it take to kill them dead? Tough question.... As you might suspect it all depends on where they are hit. Steel shot strings are much shorter as I am sure you know. Yet.. They are not " what you see is what you get on the pattern board". I was looking at numbers last night and I know that 60 BBB's at 50 yards does a pretty good job with most birds taking from 2-4 hits. Another 30 pellets should hit them with 3to 6 hits.
Again... When i am talking about 2-4 hits I am talking about at the range I am shooting back up. Might be 45 yards might be 75 yards by the time it is over.
I don't normally shoot BBB in the 10ga as a back up load. I normally shoot T's but that many BBB's has my attention.

In the type of shooting I am doing broken wings do not count. The bird can still make it too far out with a broken wing. What I am looking for is body hits. The nice thing about big shot is that it has the abilty to break a wing and then pass all the way through the body if broken in the right spot ( Pure luck) but the luck increases when you have more pellets in the circle.
Jeff

 

The best I could do with BBB at 50 yards,no buffer. I'm going to have to try some buffer I guess but I dont have any of the PR stuff which everbody says is best. But this will kill geese which is what I was looking for. I'm not sure I'm on board with Jeff's BBB pellet size for killing ducks yet. To be honest I dont have trouble killing ducks DEAD with 1 1/2 load of 1's way past 50 yards.