[California Sprig]

Not trying to be contrary here Rat but it was the polio vaccine that primarily put polio in the ash heap. Hygiene certainly played a part but less so in the US than other countries. Polio is spread 3 ways. Yes contact with contaminated poop is one, but is also spread between people by nasal and oral secretions. In the US spread was more likely by nasal and oral secretions than poop. Even in the 50's most everyone in the US had indoor plumbing and practiced decent hygiene. There is actually a theory by some scientists that improved hygiene may have at first led to an increased incidences of polio. It's a simple theory but I won't go into it here. Mass inoculations began in 1954 and by 1956 cases of polio dropped by 60 or 70% (I do not recall the exact % or number). Hygiene did play a part in reduction of the disease. The point I'm making is that it was primarily vaccinations that reduced the infection rate and ultimately eliminated it in the US.

 

[Rat Creek]

Mass inoculations began in 1954 and by 1956 cases of polio dropped by 60 or 70% (I do not recall the exact % or number).

I think the 60%-70% was the effective rate, which is far higher than flu vaccines. Remember, some people got polio FROM the vaccine back before they made improvements.

People had running water, but many if not most, did not understand how polio spread. Kind of like people who thought a stomach ulcer was caused by stress. That was science you know. :hammer:

What I am saying is that without the vaccine, people figured out how to battle it because the vaccine was 60%-70% effective. It required both not-so-common-sense education on hygiene and a successful vaccine. :thumbsup:

C'mon man. Look at the drop and trend line before the first kiddo got stuck. :fingerhead:

 

[cartervj]

C'mom man will be the new verbal snarky meme of the year

 

[SpinnerMan]

I believe you're on the right track Inda

I've been reading some are having issues with the second dose of Pfizer. Modena is the one being given that I actually know about. It may be the second dose too. I know it made a few sick on the first go around.

I've also read that some people are having issues with the virus.

But it is no where near the R naught of 3.1 they claimed when this first started... fact is 99.995% of all infections, people live.

And hundreds of thousands of Americans have died.

I get a laugh out of the math. Is it a bunch of false positives? If so, it is far more deadly and we are much further from herd immunity.

If just 100,000 have died and 99.995% survive, that means 2 billion Americans have had it.

Right...and the flu just disappeared like magic.

We have worldwide travel restrictions and people are having much less social interactions. This is going to reduce the spread of the flu is it not?

What is your estimate of the number of people that would be alive if they had not caught this virus? Mine is 250,000 to 350,000.

What's your estimate of the number of people that have been infected by it? I'd put it at 75 to 150 million.

Where do you think we are or like a lib is it a secret while you complain?

What I am saying spinnerman is that I do not buy the data, either for Covid deaths nor positive tests. It has all been manipulated. And I certainly don't buy the BS about masks...they do not work. I'm tired of the American public being gaslit, lied to and fed propaganda. It is revolting quite frankly.

So you are a well informed guy, what is your estimate of the number infected and number of excess or increase in deaths over what would hav happened because of the virus?

I am specific because we have increased suicides, drug and alcohol deaths, probably decreased vehicle deaths, ...

I agree there is a lot of BS, but it's coming from those that thinking shutting the planet for a year or more but also those that are trying to minimize it.

What is your range for deaths and infections? Without an informed opinion on them how can you have an opinion on anything related?

 

[Indaswamp]

I don't know.. What I do know is the tyrannical lock-downs and mask mandates are nothing but a ludicrous over reaction. They keep moving the goal post....it is infuriating.

 

[lil dinamo]

Isn't it interesting how they will never promote the general welfare with ideas such as exercise, a healthy diet, good quality vitamins like zink, vitamin d, vitamin c or anything of the sort. It just vaccines and pharmaceuticals. They caused a so called pandemic and their solution is their vaccines.

I reckon that's called problem-reaction-solution.

I wonder what the death toll and injury rate would be when comparing FDA apporved drugs and vaccines to nutritional supplements and vitamins...

You'd have to be a little slow to believe they have your best intersts in mind.

 

[Rat Creek]

Isn't it interesting they will never promote the general welfare with ideas such as exercise, a healthy diet, good quality vitamins like zink, vitamin d, vitamin c or anything of the sort. It just vaccines and pharmaceuticals.

Where is the money in that? :huh:

To this day, it looks like HCQ with Zinc is the best approach. HCQ has been used by millions for lupus, arthritis and malaria with almost no side effects. So much so, it is an over the counter med in many countries. It costs pennies. :thumbsup:

My mid-60's normal, but not super healthy, neighbors both contracted covid with symptoms. They were on a regiment of Zinc, Vitamins C and D. In about a week, they were fine. :thumbsup:

Really feels like over-the-top extreme measures for something that is a real threat to a small and easily identifiable segment of the population. When that happens, you know there is more going on. :fingerpt: Add a Bill Gates kicker to it, and you should proceed with great caution. :no:

 

[lil dinamo]

I'll take clean living for a 1000 Alex...they can stuff their vaccines where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned.

eta:

Another interetsing tidbit is how the fda has been comprised of pharmaceutical executives and lobbyists, but lets not talk about that.

 

[Indaswamp]

And hundreds of thousands of Americans have died.

Hundreds of thousands die every year in this country. Are you claiming the extreme measures taken were justified?

 

[SpinnerMan]

I don't know.. What I do know is the tyrannical lock-downs and mask mandates are nothing but a ludicrous over reaction. They keep moving the goal post....it is infuriating.

I agree 100% on that being a failure to rationally deal with a very serious problem.

Just because these incompetent bureaucrats and career politicians proposed ludicrous and destructive "solutions" because they had no clue how to PROTECT THEMSELVES, which is their primary motivation, doesn't mean it's not a very serious problem, which it is.

It's much like the obvious that you can frame a guilty man. Proving that they are incompetent and self-centered does NOT peove it's not a serious problem.

It's killed hundreds of thousands. There was likely nothing we could do to change that a whole lot. Most everything they've done is made the bad situation worse. This is what happens when you elect career politicians and have experts with no real world diverse experience and backgrounds. I am always amazed at how clueless so many of my colleagues are of what people without advanced college degrees do and live. They cannot relate and operate from a lack of respect and bigus stereotypes. None of this makes the problem not serious, but it makes dealing effectively with the problem impossible.

BTW, somewhere around 1 in 300 or higher will die from it. And that doesn't account for all the non-lethal suffering and damage. If herd immunity is 70% and it is just 1 in 300, that means over three quarters of a million will die without a vaccine. 330 million Americans x 70% / 300. Again, that's if 99.7% survive and it's likely a few tenths lower meaning even more will die without the vaccine. That's just the simple math.

 

[Indaswamp]

It's killed hundreds of thousands.

How do you know that for fact? What data are you looking at? Are you 100% certain that data is accurate? How are those deaths being counted? The next question is -would they have died anyway this year? No way to know the answer to that, but I suspect many would. This virus has not spiked the overall death rate in the US like the spanish flu did. It is just altering how some people die...

If we had spanish flu death ratio numbers, I might would consider some of the crazy ideas the politicians have thrown at the wall. I still would not wear a mask though because masks do not work for viruses.

 

[Rat Creek]

No one knows how many and what part or percentage the Wuhan virus played. If you died from lung issues you had before the Wuhan virus, and the virus may have contributed, is that a Wuhan death? It is by Big Gov rules and is incentivized with payments.

And I guess technically hundreds of thousands die in the US each year, but most express the number in millions, as in about 3.6 MILLION. That is just a normal year for a nation of 330 million. :hi:

It is always more dramatic to put the numbers in terms of planes crashing as POS Gretchen Whitmer, so that is about fifty-five 737s crashing each and every day.

 

[SpinnerMan]

Yes, we have a reasonable estimate.

But nice trying to pretend we are all as clueless so we can pretend like we know it's not hundreds of thousands dead that wouldn't have been.

 

[Indaswamp]

It is by Big Gov rules and is incentivized with payments.

Bingo.

 

[California Sprig]

No one knew exactly how to deal with this pandemic and no one knows for sure currently the best way to deal with it for the good of the people and society. The problem is that it became politicized. Once something becomes politicized now a days, science, facts, knowledge, logic, reasonableness etc. goes out the window. We draw lines and won't cross them. We are right, you are wrong, no middle ground. Much of the so called science is affected by the politicization. Some studies and outcomes are manipulated , results can be manipulated or interpreted to show a predetermined outcome. We search out results and content that fit our political philosophy and our preconceived ideas. I am as guilty of this as others. I am Republican, conservative, right wing, but I have friends who are way out there on the right and we can't really discuss Covid. And I'm in a different dimension from my few democrat/lefty friends, it's like we are from different planets.

I admit I do not know what ultimately is the best way for people to deal with Covid. I've read compelling reports, studies, articles by scientific, medical, various experts and others both for and against the vaccine, for and against masks and social distancing, for and against certain treatments. I'm making up my own mind what I'm going to do based on my personal research. I'm getting the vaccine, in fact can't wait. I'm 72, very active but do have some minor co morbidities. I don't like it but I don't really mind wearing masks. I have no problem with social distancing. I do have big problems with government restricting our movements and restricting and closing businesses , schools and some of the other fascist things the government has done. But the bottom line is the whole Covid thing has been completely F'd up due to politicalization, we are only for the most part listening to those we agree with. Climate change is the same. Once it was politicized much of the science became pseudo science, based on predetermined results. (I personally do not believe there is a man caused climate crisis nor can man do much to affect climate change) . Extreme politicalization now a days screws up so much.

 

[Indaswamp]

If masks worked to stop viruses, I can guarantee you that mask makers would advertise that fact. They don't. Why? Liability. They can not make a claim unless it is true. There are many disclaimers stating explicitly on mask boxes that they do not stop viruses.
Most common is n-95, but many people do not wear those. I still see people walking around with what amounts to a handkerchief tied around their neck. That isn't going to do squat. Not to mention, even if they did work in theory, it would never work in practice. Masks concentrate whatever they filter, and when people wear masks they touch their face 50 times more often readjusting, closing off gaps becasue their glasses fog up, etc...and then they touch things in the store when they shop...yup-spreading the virus....

 

[lil dinamo]

Most everything they've done is made the bad situation worse. This is what happens when you elect career politicians and have experts with no real world diverse experience and backgrounds. I am always amazed at how clueless so many of my colleagues are of what people without advanced college degrees do and live. They cannot relate and operate from a lack of respect and bigus stereotypes. None of this makes the problem not serious, but it makes dealing effectively with the problem impossible.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't most of the people in government that are handling the fauci flu have advanced college degrees from prestigious universities and ivy league institutions?

 

[The Pas Swamp Donkey]

but you keep going down the list until this thing is sent to the ash heap of history like polio and other disease we have vaccinated into irrelevance.

As the vaccine was not generally available in the US until the 60s', polio was actually hand-washed to the ash heap of history, not vaccinated, as it is spread by bad hygiene (poop). Beginning after WWII, and prior to any vaccinations, the US and other nations did massive advertising campaigns encouraging new standards of hygiene. People for the first time understood the connection between hygiene and polio spread. That is what put polio on the ash heap. The vaccine helped but was not the real reason as polio was pretty rare when people began getting the vaccine.

Don't take this wrong. I am thrilled there is a vaccine for polio. My childhood friend's oldest sister (born in late 50s) survived polio and was partially crippled. The vaccine simply tapped out the small remaining infection rate. :hammer:

Almost all disease spread comes down to two things (1) hygiene and (2) parasites, mostly mosquitos and ticks. God bless Edwin Ruud, the inventor of the hot water heater as he brought modern hygiene to the level we enjoy today. :thumbsup: There is your Nobel Peace Prize. :hammer:

As someone who has knowledge of diseases, microbes, and how to treat them, I hate to say that you have zero understanding of how vaccines work, and how the eradication programs for diseases such as smallpox and polio are dependent on vaccines.
I can point you to several hundred reputable scientific articles for reference, but you certainly can google them as well. Please refrain from youtube videos and facebook university. These are not good sources. I do not have a doctorate in any of the above disciplines, but I have undergraduate university degrees in microbiology , immunology, and pharmacy. I will be happy to defend and refute any evidence you can present here. (please reference your sources as well, preferably placebo controlled with double blind protocols).

Want to see graphical proof of vaccine effectiveness?

Vaccines work. Next you'll be arguing that masks don't work either.............

 

[lil dinamo]

The vaccines work so well you have to be forced to take them. Remeber, never question authority...be a good comrade and just go along with it. It's science.

eta
The Tuskegee experiment never happened either. Don't even bother looking into it since it never happened trust me. The people in the government would never lie to the people and I mean never. They're totally honest.

 

[HNTFSH]

The vaccines work so well you have to be forced to take them.

Least he could do is post the overwhelming empirical evidence that masks work.