If the dog is conditioned properly and taught what the collar actually means, then an electric collar can actually be a much more humane way to train a dog and a faster way to get the desired results. Remember with the collar that you are not teaching with the electric collar, you are simply reinforcing a command that has already been taught without the collar. I've trained both hundreds of pointers proffessionally and also trained my own labs with it, however my current lab I am training without the collar because I have the time to take with her and in my opinion for duck hunting you will be more pleased with your retriever if you don't have to rely on the collar to get them through their commands. Just my opinion.

 

Less mental and physical corrections over the life of the dog when applied properly.

 

When people use it as a training tool instead of a punishment device, the results can be amazing.

Kg

 

I'll put it this way, I have had dogs that I was able to get broke and into my hunting string that would not have been able to stand up to the traditional ways of training, not very long ago a pointer had to be an extremely tough dog to be able to take the training and now because we can train smarter and without as much pressure a higher percentage of dogs make it into our hunting string. :thumbsup:

 

I'll put it this way, I have had dogs that I was able to get broke and into my hunting string that would not have been able to stand up to the traditional ways of training, not very long ago a pointer had to be an extremely tough dog to be able to take the training and now because we can train smarter and without as much pressure a higher percentage of dogs make it into our hunting string. :thumbsup:

I have softened up a little as well or at least improved as a trainer. That said - like everything else, knowledge or wisdom isn't wholly transferable. I think a lot is learned through pressure training and the outcome could and should be applied to the toolkit.

 

I have started using the electronic collar this last year myself and have had great success using it with my springer however my lab does not respond to it as well so I don't use it with her hardly at all.

You may need to qualify the "great success using it with (your) springer" - especially having followed that declaration with "my Lab does not respond to it as well so I don't use it...hardly at all."

Got a feeling you're doing the Lab a favor by having misused (or what most retriever trainers would call misusing) the collar on the spaniel. Put it this way: if I were training a flushing dog - and training it only to be steady to wing, shot and fall - the e-collar would never go around the dog's neck. That's all obedience - managed with shoe-leather training and without an e-collar. But I'd bet buffalo head nickels to banana splits you're using the e-collar to steady the dog based on my interpretation of "the Lab does not respond to it as well." Nothing wrong with that - but also nothing in the use of the e-collar can backfire quicker than using "direct pressure" afield.

Retriever trainers use indirect pressure - you might want to do some research into that application for your term paper. Retriever trainers are also easier to recognize - they're the ones who don't use "broke" for force fetching a dog nor ordinarily refer to what they're working with as a "string" of dogs. That would hark back to the outdated methodology, albeit the still prevalent way of e-collar use when it comes to pointers.

MG

 

Quite simply put, the electric collar is the fastest, safest, most humane, and most precise training tool ever invented. Despite what the bunny huggers say. Most of them have never had a "trained" dog.

 

Retriever trainers use indirect pressure - you might want to do some research into that application for your term paper. Retriever trainers are also easier to recognize - they're the ones who don't use "broke" for force fetching a dog nor ordinarily refer to what they're working with as a "string" of dogs. That would hark back to the outdated methodology, albeit the still prevalent way of e-collar use when it comes to pointers.

MG

Pointer trainers use indirect pressure as well, and yes when teaching a pointer whoa I generally start the collar around the dogs waist where I use a "suitcase handle" or rope to begin teaching "whoa," but the same concepts apply. The collar should not be used on a pointer either as a form of direct pressure, but only to correct a command that is already known, and eventually the dog can be corrected even with the collar around his neck for any command as when it boils down to it, they are all obedience commands. I wouldn't say that a "string" of dogs is a form of outdated methodology either, as there are quite a few trainers here in South GA both pointer and retriever that use this phrase regardless of breed.

 

What grade level we talking about here? Is this a short paper or term paper?

I ask because there is a whole lot you could get into…. If you plan to discuss use of the electric collar, you better start that section by explaining the theory behind it. Get some information on operant conditioning (Thorndike), Lorenz, and classical (Pavlov). If you don't know the fundamentals of their theories, you can't really explain the proper use of an e-collar.

 

I have started using the electronic collar this last year myself and have had great success using it with my springer however my lab does not respond to it as well so I don't use it with her hardly at all.

You may need to qualify the "great success using it with (your) springer" - especially having followed that declaration with "my Lab does not respond to it as well so I don't use it...hardly at all."

Got a feeling you're doing the Lab a favor by having misused (or what most retriever trainers would call misusing) the collar on the spaniel. Put it this way: if I were training a flushing dog - and training it only to be steady to wing, shot and fall - the e-collar would never go around the dog's neck. That's all obedience - managed with shoe-leather training and without an e-collar. But I'd bet buffalo head nickels to banana splits you're using the e-collar to steady the dog based on my interpretation of "the Lab does not respond to it as well." Nothing wrong with that - but also nothing in the use of the e-collar can backfire quicker than using "direct pressure" afield.

Retriever trainers use indirect pressure - you might want to do some research into that application for your term paper. Retriever trainers are also easier to recognize - they're the ones who don't use "broke" for force fetching a dog nor ordinarily refer to what they're working with as a "string" of dogs. That would hark back to the outdated methodology, albeit the still prevalent way of e-collar use when it comes to pointers.

MG

I have been using it with the springer because he is more prone to breaking at shot. My lab usually has no problems with most commands giving and is generally well behaved so I have not found much of a use for it on her. I use it for corrections of known commands and this has helped tons with my high-strung springer, although he still needs more work I find myself not using it nearly as much and almost not at all. I am sure I have made more than my fair share of mistakes with it though but the dogs sure arn't scared of it. This is going to be used as a term paper and should be 8-15 pages. Based on my personal amature experience I have found some dogs respond differently to it, my springer will immediatly obey the command given when corrected with it and my lab will sometimes roll on her back. No, I am not shocking the h@ll out of them, level 1 or 2, just enough to get their attention. Still got lots of learning to do but based on the books and videos I have seen on the subject I do believe for the most part I have been using it correctly.

 

What grade level we talking about here? Is this a short paper or term paper?

I ask because there is a whole lot you could get into…. If you plan to discuss use of the electric collar, you better start that section by explaining the theory behind it. Get some information on operant conditioning (Thorndike), Lorenz, and classical (Pavlov). If you don't know the fundamentals of their theories, you can't really explain the proper use of an e-collar.

Thanks, good ideas. I will deffinitley read up on the fundamental theories. And it is a 8-15 page term paper.

 

I have been using it with the springer because he is more prone to breaking at shot. My lab usually has no problems with most commands giving and is generally well behaved so I have not found much of a use for it on her. I use it for corrections of known commands and this has helped tons with my high-strung springer, although he still needs more work I find myself not using it nearly as much and almost not at all. I am sure I have made more than my fair share of mistakes with it though but the dogs sure arn't scared of it. This is going to be used as a term paper and should be 8-15 pages. Based on my personal amature experience I have found some dogs respond differently to it, my springer will immediatly obey the command given when corrected with it and my lab will sometimes roll on her back. No, I am not shocking the h@ll out of them, level 1 or 2, just enough to get their attention. Still got lots of learning to do but based on the books and videos I have seen on the subject I do believe for the most part I have been using it correctly.

Brad - not wanting to bust your chops but a few of the comments above are the reason e-collars get a bad rap (you can add that to the paper at your own risk). :lol3:

You dog rolls over because it has NO clue why it is getting zapped. I believe, based on your own comments, your are using it incorrectly. I haven't see a shred of evidence you collar conditioned the dogs nor know what it is, and why it works.

Perhaps the suggested resource material will help you understand.

 

My advise is to really do your research and double, triple check it. You readers will be most likely be stuffed shirt Profs. or some preppy bunny hugger types that have little if any knowledge on animal behavior. Use this paper as a teaching tool and be very cautious on the wording you use. Often these type of written articles end up being mis quoted and published as ammo for anti groups. Heavy emphisis on the "humane" aspects of "correct collar conditioning" and use terms such as "stimulate" when discribing activation of the collar, never use "shock or burn" and refer to the collar as an e-collar not a shock collar. Refer to it as a "training tool". Use lots of examples of "positive" outcomes , such as dogs that have achieved National Titles or that have appeared on TV or in Films that have been trained with the correct use of e-collars. You can also mention how the proper use of e-collars can save lives by assisting a trainer to prevent dog being killed by automobiles or even people from being hurt or killed in auto accidents trying to avoid a dog that has wondered into the road. DO YOUR HOMEWORK and good luck :thumbsup:

 

I have been using it with the springer because he is more prone to breaking at shot.

Like I said, the wrong way to steady a flushing dog:

If I were training a flushing dog - and training it only to be steady to wing, shot and fall - the e-collar would never go around the dog's neck. That's all obedience - managed with shoe-leather training and without an e-collar. But I'd bet buffalo head nickels to banana splits you're using the e-collar to steady the dog.

Before you turn in a term paper that disseminates more incorrect "ammo" for those opposed to the e-collar - and before you do your dog (more) harm - please take under advisement that you learn how retriever trainers use the collar. Competitive retriever trainers, the correct way.

MG

 

Mike Lardy wrote an editorial for the Retriever Journal, you may want to start there. He also did a video dedicated to Collar Conditioning.

 

I have been using it with the springer because he is more prone to breaking at shot.

Like I said, the wrong way to steady a flushing dog:

If I were training a flushing dog - and training it only to be steady to wing, shot and fall - the e-collar would never go around the dog's neck. That's all obedience - managed with shoe-leather training and without an e-collar. But I'd bet buffalo head nickels to banana splits you're using the e-collar to steady the dog.

Before you turn in a term paper that disseminates more incorrect "ammo" for those opposed to the e-collar - and before you do your dog (more) harm - please take under advisement that you learn how retriever trainers use the collar. Competitive retriever trainers, the correct way.

MG

Guys, I am doing a paper on the "possible" benefits of using an Ecollar and the controversial use of Ecollars. This is not a paper on how "I" personally train my dogs. Have I used the collar I have incorrectly at times? I am positive I have, however, I do not believe that I have been "harming" my dogs with it. I am an amateur trainer that has trained only a few gun dogs, but, I have read and done plenty of homework on the subject before I ever started training a dog. I have used training methods I have learned through reading books such as "Top Dog", "Game Dog" and "Training the Hunting Retriever". I am Currently in the process of reading a couple more. Like I said before, I am new to using an Ecollar and I am sure I have used it incorrectly at times but I am sure I have two pretty happy, well adjusted, well trained dogs and have seen some benefits of using the collar. However, I am not going to get in some debate on how I train my dogs on an internet forum. If you may have any advice on the benefits of an Ecollar training regimen vs a natural training regimen or something of the like I will gladly take it. And thanks for other advice already given. Currently I have been trying to find journal articles on research studies done with dogs using and Ecollar. Found a couple that were pretty interesting but not really pro-use of the Ecollar. Thanks.

 

Brad - not wanting to bust your chops but a few of the comments above are the reason e-collars get a bad rap (you can add that to the paper at your own risk). :lol3:

You dog rolls over because it has NO clue why it is getting zapped. I believe, based on your own comments, your are using it incorrectly. I haven't see a shred of evidence you collar conditioned the dogs nor know what it is, and why it works.

Perhaps the suggested resource material will help you understand.[/quote]

No problem on the chops bustin. As I said earlier I know I have made mistakes with my training, I am learning more every day. The dogs were however collar conditioned and do respond to it. I do happen to have the worlds most submissive lab though and she will roll on her back if I even look at her mean. I have used the collar on my lab mainly for safety reasons when transfering the dog from truck to boat or by roads, besides that she doesn't really need it. I have been doing more research in the indirect pressure and will surely try to incorporate this more into my training. This is partly what I am researching, many people believe these training tools are used incorrectly. Despite my ignorance in using an Ecollar I have been pretty successful and would use it again if I thought it may help train a particular dog.

 

Go to the library (as you don't want to buy these…$90/each) and get "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training. Vol 1 and 2"

You can browse through a few sections that will give you a good idea of basic learning theory, and you can use the literature cited section at the end of each chapter to pull other interesting citations (since this is a term paper, better have some peer reviewed info in it). This is not going to give you direct info on the ecollar specifically, but I think you will see how the ecollar acts as a "tool" for the trainer just like other tools such as the collar, choke collar, etc. At least I hope you do by the time the paper is written :yes:

 

Go to the library (as you don't want to buy these…$90/each) and get "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training. Vol 1 and 2"

You can browse through a few sections that will give you a good idea of basic learning theory, and you can use the literature cited section at the end of each chapter to pull other interesting citations (since this is a term paper, better have some peer reviewed info in it). This is not going to give you direct info on the ecollar specifically, but I think you will see how the ecollar acts as a "tool" for the trainer just like other tools such as the collar, choke collar, etc. At least I hope you do by the time the paper is written :yes:

That and your previous suggestion are excellent.

Brad - I'll accept your reply cause your learning is great, am sure I have plenty to go as well. I'd still suggest if you weren't aware of some conditioning methods (like indirect pressure) when you collar conditioned your dogs - you could not have possibly collar conditioned them correctly. :beer:

 

I don't disagree. Still learnin, thanks for the advice and I will surely be restarting it this spring, probably start with the basics again untill I am ready to move on to the collar again if at all.

 

Go to the library (as you don't want to buy these…$90/each) and get "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training. Vol 1 and 2"

You can browse through a few sections that will give you a good idea of basic learning theory, and you can use the literature cited section at the end of each chapter to pull other interesting citations (since this is a term paper, better have some peer reviewed info in it). This is not going to give you direct info on the ecollar specifically, but I think you will see how the ecollar acts as a "tool" for the trainer just like other tools such as the collar, choke collar, etc. At least I hope you do by the time the paper is written :yes:

Thanks, I will see if I can find a copy tomorrow.

 

The e-collar can safely be used, to remotely elicit and enforce a CONDITIONED response, when the dog has made a conscious DECISION, to do something wrong.

Conditioning is a hard concept for Humans to get a grip on, since we THINK about everything. However, we do demonstrate conditioned responses several times, every day.

I think that reading the book; Training and Campaigning Retrievers, The Principles and Practice, by Jack M. Gwaltney Jr, will help you understand the difference, and also provide some insight into the "way dogs think".

 

That's Dr. Jack Gwaltney to you, 'copterdoc - who, if you're looking for an academic citation, as Brad here might be, also happens to be the world's leading authority on the common cold http://www.sc.mahidol.ac.th/sclg/suppor ... ns/a16.htm and always practices preventive medicine against coming down with one when running spring field trials...

MG

 

That's Dr. Jack Gwaltney to you, 'copterdoc - who, if you're looking for an academic citation, as Brad here might be, also happens to be the world's leading authority on the common cold http://www.sc.mahidol.ac.th/sclg/suppor ... ns/a16.htm and always practices preventive medicine against coming down with one when running spring field trials...

MG

:huh: Thread is about ecollars, not colds, or who you think should be called "Doctor"

 

That's Dr. Jack Gwaltney to you, 'copterdoc - who, if you're looking for an academic citation, as Brad here might be, also happens to be the world's leading authority on the common cold http://www.sc.mahidol.ac.th/sclg/suppor ... ns/a16.htm and always practices preventive medicine against coming down with one when running spring field trials...

MG

:huh: Thread is about ecollars, not colds, or who you think should be called "Doctor"

So "shock" me back on message, pointerman - and think (using indirect pressure please) about how to take yourself a little less seriously. :wink:

MG